Kamangir (Archer)

Reader's Comments

1. Amy | September 18th, 2006 at 4:26 pm

   Hi,
   I don’t think that the title “Let’s hate” is accurate here. I am Not Catholic, and have my own beef with the Pope, but the fact is, he was using an Biblical citation to talk about the cross of Christ, and why a tool of destruction and death is important to Christians. The fact that Christ was crucified is just one of the many reasons Jews don’t believe that he was the Messiah–because the Messiah wouldn’t allow himself to be crucified (and God wouldn’t allow it)–that idea being scandal. To the non-religious, the idea of God sending His Son to earth to be a sacrifice for humans is just non-sensical–foolishness. I don’t see any of this as being hateful or saying “let’s hate.” It is an concise explanation of one element of why the cross is offensive to people. Of course, this may prove that I am hateful, myself.
   Maybe that gives a little different perspective.

2. kamangir | September 18th, 2006 at 4:51 pm

   Amy,
   Thanks for the background. It was very interesting.
   I look at this as an outsider. I am neither Cristian, nor Jew or Muslim. All these doctrines are respected institutions established for good. Though, for some reason, they have also been the source for hatred and war. Take this; a real Shia learns that Sunni figures violently possessed leadership and opposed Imam Ali. Remembering this, people will only have one more reason to hate each other. While the cross and crucification are respected by some people, and I have definitely no problem with them, I do not think Pope should remind the world of the almost forgotten controversy around them.
   It seems that Jewish people were indeed the ones who killed Christ. Similarly, Muslims and Christians killed each other for quite a long period. I think if we, or some people, like to preserve these religions they should start to “forget” the past. This seems to have happened pretty well in Christianity, and also probably in Judaism to some extent. It seems that Muslims are becoming mature, too. Maybe Pope is a bit behind the general public.
   Any way, my title may seem a bit sarcastic. I apologize if it is insulting. What I meant was to show my surprise that a source of blessing reminds the world of old wounds.

3. Amy | September 18th, 2006 at 5:36 pm

   Hi Archer,
   Ah, thanks for the clarification. I missed the updates while you were gone. BTW, while much of Christian history has demonized the Jews, claiming they were “Christ killers” the reality remains that crucifixion was a Roman execution style, not something that Jews did, or even had a right to do under the Roman occupation. If I ever heard a Christian claim that the Jews killed Christ, I’d say, “You’re a Christian? You believe that Christ died for your sins? Then you killed Christ.” I think this is the basis of Christianity. Thanks again for your response.
   Amy

4. kamangir | September 18th, 2006 at 6:12 pm

   Amy,
   My question is this, even if Jews killed Christ for sure is it really important? He was killed for a very important reason, at least his followers claim so. Yet, it seems that many forget the main cause and follow a narrow pathway which is probably more interesting because lets you yell at others. The same is true for Muslims and probably Jews.

   Any way, it seems we think a bit similarly.

5. Frieda | September 18th, 2006 at 6:45 pm

   You better read this : http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/apologize_for_what.html

   HE DID NOT PREACH HATE..get your fact straight

6. Amy | September 19th, 2006 at 7:18 am

   Hi Archer,
   I think we do agree. No one should point fingers at who killed Jesus, because Christians believe he came for the sole purpose of dying. I happen to believe that blaming Jews, or anyone else for killing Jesus, is contrary to the purpose of Jesus’s death. No one should be pointing fingers, except, if they’re Christians, at themselves.
   Amy

7. kamangir | September 19th, 2006 at 12:35 pm

   This works for me. Still, I am not quite sure pure Christians like your argument. :)

8. Amy | September 20th, 2006 at 7:35 am

   I’m a “pure” Christian :) Maybe I’ll ask this question at my Bible study today and give you and give you an update.
   Amy

9. kamangir | September 20th, 2006 at 8:57 am

   That is so nice of you! And I mean it. I really like to hear your answer to this question: “does an average Christian hold Jewish people accountable for killing Jesus”?

10. Amy | September 20th, 2006 at 12:49 pm

    Hi Archer,
    OK, here’s what I found. Every person I spoke to sounded surprised that it was even a question. The typical response was something like this. “Jesus died voluntarily, and he came to die, so it doesn’t matter who drove the nails. Since Christians benefit, and we say that Jesus died for us, we can also say that Jesus died BECAUSE of us.” Blaming Jews for Christ’s death, at least among my Christian tradition is really frowned upon. See, most Evangelicals hold Jews in high esteem and consider them God’s people, and believe that Christians have been “grafted into” the tree. It’s an analogy that the Apostle Paul used, that Jews are God’s people, and are like a tree, but that Gentiles (non-Jews) can be grafted onto the tree by believing in Jesus.

    Now, this is from the POV of an American Evangelical, so I’m sure ideas can differ in other countries and, certainly have differed through time, but this is a decent cross section from my Christian framework.

    Best to you !
    Amy

11. kamangir | September 20th, 2006 at 1:48 pm

    Amy,
    This is great! One less reason to hate. Thanks for the update. :)

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