Kamangir (Archer)

Reader's Comments

1. Lesly | October 5th, 2006 at 12:14 pm

   As long as religious observances are not compulsory (read: enforced by the State or vigilantes) I think it is perfectly acceptable. This is a standard libertarian outlook on questions like these. :) Or try, “your right to throw a punch stops at the end of my nose”.

   When I lived in the state of Vermont Christmas was a big deal there. Everything, I mean everything closed down - and this is the liberal northeast of the U.S.! Nobody could stop you from driving around or doing whatever you wanted to do, but most, if not all workers in the area I lived, took the day off with their bosses’ blessing.

2. kamangir | October 5th, 2006 at 12:19 pm

   From what I have seen in Iran, observance may very easily turn into an obligation when the majority is behind it.

3. mahi | October 5th, 2006 at 1:48 pm

   It is intresting Arash. Jewish have one day fasting and doing nothing and Muslims have 30 days to do nothing.

4. Some some | October 5th, 2006 at 2:45 pm

   Indeed Arash, it could have easily turned into an obligation, but all these years it didn’t. Doesn’t that tell you anything? The majority of the people want and decide to respect the rituals in thsi one day by their own free will, and the same people are precisely for the reason you mentioend in your commenrt do not want to impose it on themselves or others forcefully at the same time because they are indeed democratically minded and educated. Now what is wrong with that? I find it very beautiful actually.

5. z | October 5th, 2006 at 4:44 pm

   look at this: http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/05/irans_supreme_leader.html

6. kamangir | October 5th, 2006 at 5:57 pm

   Some some,
   I am coming from a religious country. So, no offense, but it is very hard for me to accept that the religious will of the majority does not turn into an obligation for everyone.
   Let’s do it this way; is there any law in Israel to support minority religious groups in case they do not want to observe Yom Kippur’s rituals? Think of Gay’s rights, for example.

7. kamangir | October 5th, 2006 at 5:58 pm

   Z,
   Fine. By the way, is masturbation okay in Yom Kippur?

8. goli | October 5th, 2006 at 7:33 pm

   when 99% of Iranian people leave their jobs and go to parks on “13 bedar”, they are not forced to do so. This was an ancient religious custom which has turned into a cultural custom. a way for a people to shar a joyful occation. Yom kippur has also turned to a cultural custom for thoes who are not religious, a way that the people of a country show their solidarity with each other. of course, I don’t expect any Iranian to understand simple facts like this about other people or religions. I went to college in Iran and believe me I have seen professors who don’t seem to have ever left their villages.(you know better how they get the job !!) 28 years of growing with only reading books that need permission from the government for being published !! cannot help even a doctorate student, just arrived in the West to find the ability to even understand simple cultural concepts without hateful prejudize. Also in Iran it is not the majority that turns religion into obligation, its the government. and please dont’ compare Judaism or any other religion with Islam, it will make it harder for you to understand others. every religion and culture has to be studied in its own domain. (and observe yourself while thinking if publishing my comment will be dangerous for you when you want to go back to Iran !!, what will it tell you?)

9. Lesly | October 5th, 2006 at 8:59 pm

   Arash: So, no offense, but it is very hard for me to accept that the religious will of the majority does not turn into an obligation for everyone.

   I’ve noticed you are uncomfortable accepting premises that support religious inclusion on the one hand, and defend the separation of church and state on the other hand. I think, looking at the Mid East, I can understand why. The Koran can double as a legal document. It’s not surprising that politics made an impression on Muhammad and manifested itself in the Koran since he was, at least for a time, a politician.

   In the Mid East it seems like you have to extremes: the suppression of religious expression under authoritarian secular regimes, or the suppression of religious diversity and separation of church and state through under theocratic regimes. Neither regimes can figure out how to compromise without capitulating to the forces that supporters have built up on the other extreme and so we’re at an impasse. For the moment.

10. Matthew | October 5th, 2006 at 11:40 pm

    Arash, in southern Virginia when I was a boy nothing was open on Christmas day except one or two gas stations and a Chinese restaurant. There was no law that mandated it, and most people in the area were too busy celebrating to worry about shutting down those who chose to keep their businesses open. By the same mark, there were (and still are) some laws on the books which grew out of the Protestant moral sensibilities of the majority in the ‘Bible Belt.’ Until I was maybe 10 or 11 all grocery stores in my county were closed on Sundays. Now most stores stay open but Virginia state law prohibits buying liquor on Sundays (you can buy beer, which is good for my Catholic family and our tradition of having burgers and watching football). Keep in mind though that the laws in Virginia, and specifically Suffolk County, don’t always apply to the rest of the rest of the state let alone country. Businesses owned by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus (and there are a few), atheists, whoever really, have always been allowed to stay open on Christmas day, but most chose not too because of the lack of clientele. Hope that helps!

11. Lisa | October 6th, 2006 at 2:52 am

    Arash, if you had read my previous posts on Yom Kippur (there are links in my current post), you would have discovered that there is no law forbidding the driving of cars on Yom Kippur.

    It is a custom, not a law.

    In the areas where the majority of the residents are Jewish, people observe the custom out of tacit consensus - out of respect for tradition and also because it is very pleasant to have one day of the year without the noise of cars and buses. If, however, someone does decide against observing the custom there is no law against that either. And in fact one does see the occasional car in Tel Aviv on Yom Kippur. But even though most of the people in Tel Aviv are secular, they don’t like seeing cars on the roads because that is the one day of the year when everyone can enjoy bicycling and rollerblading. The kids, especially love it.

    In areas where the majority of the population is Arab, for example various villages in the Galilee or towns like Um El Fahm, the custom is of course not observed. Restaurants and shops are open, and people drive their cars as usual.

12. g | October 6th, 2006 at 8:26 am

    read enameh.persianblog.com Haji Reza can share some of his expereinces with you. He used to be a Basiji !! it took a long time for him to wake up to a normal way of thinking, and understand the way coutries and cultures with democracy work. even thinking that there was a time that I was like you and him, bothers me. no offence. soon you will know what I mean.you will know there is something really wrong with us Iranians, with the way that our minds have been taught to function.(at leaset our brains are fine!!)welcome to the West.

13. Mahi | October 6th, 2006 at 10:03 am

    Goli,you are right,
    In Iran, everything government supports will become oblgation not the majority, so eating out during day is prohibited in Ramadan, although there are lots of people who don’t fast, and “13 bedar” is not obliogatory although majority go out in this day.So it can not be compared to “Yom kippur” which you claimed didn’t become obligation during these years.
    Arash made a good point and that is the free society isn’t the one that support just majoritie’s right, it also support minority. Although the “yom Kippur” might not be obligatory but you can not tell there is no one who “doesn’t want to fast and wants to go out” but just cope with the situation that majority chose .
    Your comment was very offensive , and it was just like some Iranians who hates everything about Iran and think everything except Iran and Islam is completly perfect and without flaw.
    And another thing is that calm down baby, try to undrestand others point and then condemn them with insults.

14. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 11:55 am

    Goli, G,
    As Mahi has also mentioned (see), you can not compare 13 Bedar (the Iranian custom of spending the thirteenth day of the year in the nature) with Ramadan. Clearly, 13 Bedar is a to-do while Ramadan in a not-to-do; no one will force you to go out in that day.
    If you have been in Iran you probably know how close your sentence “a way for a people to share a joyful occasion” is to the Islamic Republic propaganda for “encouraging” people to go to the front during the war and to vote in non-democratic elections. I think we should be objective.
    And about the rest of your comment, did I ever insult you? I asked a question. I have seen people who yell at you when you question their belief system, i.e. some Muslims. Are you one of them?

15. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 12:03 pm

    Lesly,
    Exactly. However, I think there is a third way, to separate religion and state. This means the government will have nothing to do with the religion, in terms of funding and support, and hence can not benefit from religious groups’ support. It also means freedom of expression which is exactly what they are afraid of.
    Any way, I think you are right. There is a Persian saying that “the one who is bitten by a snake is afraid of a colored rope”.

16. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 12:05 pm

    Matthew,
    You are absolutely right. Still, I have seen such nice popular observations which have turned into compulsory inhumane obligations.

17. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pm

    Lisa,
    I have had a similar discussion with you before. The Israel that you draw is a fantastically civilized society. I wish I could spend some time there to see such a modern country with my own eyes. The thing is, good for you. I do not think such a diverse, and still civilized, way of living can be implemented in Iran.

18. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 12:12 pm

    G, Goli,
    This is what I understand from your comment: I am close to extremist Islamic ideas. Right? Why are so angry?

19. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 12:14 pm

    Mahi,
    Thanks for the support. :)

20. goli | October 6th, 2006 at 2:10 pm

    Arash,
    you say (to Lisa) such a domocracy is not possible in Iran. It was possible during Shah’s regim. people enjoyed the religion and there was no obligation. don’t you see the same kind of democracy in Canada? sorry, it was insulting to me to see a doctorate student looks at other cultures threw his own eyes, and his own culture, a culture which has no room for self-critticism. mayve I was too harsh becuase I have very bad memories of the supposedly educated people in Iran, especailly university professors. Also I didn’t mean to be offensive. What I tried to explain that in schools and even in college we grow with a culture of total disrespect toward other cultures, and we always hear that we are the best. well, as soon as we live the country, our illusions are shattered. I meant this more as a harsh self-critisism, not offense toward you or any others. unless we learn to self-criticize ourselves, we will remain a bunch of fanatics.

21. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 2:35 pm

    Goli,
    I was born after the revolution. But, through talking to people and reading books, I have a rather different picture of Shah’s time. Basically, it was a monarchy, not a republic. Furthermore, the clergy had their power and exerted their will. So, I don’t think much has changed.
    Does this mean we, Iranians, are mentally ill? I don’t think so. We are sick. And still, we hate to take drugs. A part of our sickness, which is very understandable, is that sometimes we think yelling at people is a power.
    Any way, it seems that we are finding a common ground. :)

22. goli | October 6th, 2006 at 3:25 pm

    Arash,
    yes, we are sick but the medication is self-criticism, and a harsh one. the problem is that what you know about shah’s regim is from censored books, the same that what you know about democracy in Israel or the west, is from what you have read. fortunately you are in Canada and will be able to experience how it is. by the way, there are two kind of fanatics, religious ones and anti-religion ones !! Unfortunatley many, weary of religios tyrants, are becoming this second kind of fanatics !! the problem now in Iran is that the Mullas have taken God as a hostage and consider Him their representative in the Universe !! I wish I could explain better but there is no time. maybe another time.

23. goli | October 6th, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    by the way, there is nothing wrong with yelling at ourselves !! it helps us wake up.

24. kamangir | October 6th, 2006 at 4:58 pm

    Goli,
    Indeed, self-criticism is a cure. But, self-criticism differs entirely from yelling at each other. I do not yell at anyone and expect others to respect me. About books on Shah, I have read books from political movements before the revolution. I am wondering how you are so sure about the type of books I have read without even knowing me that much.
    By the way, I am not an anti-religion fanatic.
    Let’s do this; let’s forget all labels and givens and talk freely about things which matter to us.

25. Sivan | October 8th, 2006 at 7:58 am

    Kamangir,
    It seems that the discussion moved away from Yom Kippur into more Iranian related issues, which is just fine. But I do have to ask: why on earth did you think I was from Amsterdam??
    And - no, one should not masturbate on Yom Kippur; all sexual activity is forbidden on this day. Also, you shouldn’t wear leather shoes.
    This is of course according to the Jewish “shariah”, not a binding law (luckily…)
    Sivan

26. ella | October 8th, 2006 at 2:12 pm

    Goli

    I also read books about the shah. Shah regime was not democratic. It was monarchy and other points of view were not admitted, otherwise why so many people at the end of his reign were anti-shah? Not only mullahs were anti-shah but also the reformists.
    True, present regime hijacked the revolution against the shah, it is worse than the shah’s regime, but you should not idealize the previous regime.
    However I think you are right that constructive self-criticism is a cure for many ills. But the self criticism should be constructive, not criticism for the sake of criticizing.

27. Lisa | October 9th, 2006 at 9:54 am

    Arash, I find your attitude rather puzzling and illogical. You ask questions about Israel, claiming that you are interested in answers. Then you tell people who actually live in Israel that you do not accept their answers, even though you have never even visited the country. Why is that?

    If you check through the Flickr photos taken by me and my friends on Yom Kippur (links are on my blog posts about Yom Kippur), you will see people eating outdoors, having meals that include pork, riding their bicycles and walking around in shorts and T-shirts. No-one in those photos is fasting, attending synagogue or otherwise observing the holiday according to religious practice.

    If Israel were a theocracy, the riding of bicycles would be forbidden (because it is against Jewish law to ride bicycles on holy days). Or the police would arrest people for eating in public, perhaps. Or perhaps Jewish members of the Jerusalem City Council would not bother to protest that roads linking (Arab) East Jerusalem to (Jewish) West Jerusalem were closed on Yom Kippur, making life difficult for Arab residents who do drive on the holiday.

    As I have told you, I have no problem with legitimate criticism. I do, however, have a very big problem with uninformed generalizations, illogical conclusions and demonization.

    And by the way, Israel is not a republic. It is a parliamentary democracy.

28. Nominally Challenged | October 9th, 2006 at 10:57 am

    Hi Kamangir,

    Just came across this post. Yom Kippur is not universally observed in Israel as a fast day (i.e., as a day of not eating, drinking, etc.). It is what would, in countries such as England and Australia, be what’s known as a “public holiday”, or a “bank holiday” meaning, a day on which the banks are closed, and therefore, businesses are closed. Sure, some people fast. Perhaps even a majority does. If you were to ask Jews around the world, they would probably say that if there is a single event that the majority of them observe to some extent, it is Yom Kippur. It’s sort of the lowest common denominator. Having said that, there’s nothing compulsory about fasting or going to synagogue on Yom Kippur.

    Not driving is an extension of the fast, not a critical part of it. In Israel, it has become a tradition that no-one drives, originally out of respect for those people in the religious *minority* who do observe the day, and as a result of having no cars on the road, it has become a holiday for children to ride bicycles on. What the Europeans have, for years, been trying to institute as a ‘no-car’ day, Israel has annually, as a by-product of religious observance. Nowadays, people don’t drive on Yom Kippur for many reasons, but generally: 1. because some of us are in fact observing the fast; 2. because it’s a day to walk and ride around the streets unhindered; and 3. because we truly love seeing our cities without cars for one day a year. Almost every year, I find Yom Kippur a totally amazing experience, and I’m an atheist, so my reasons are not spiritual. It’s just fantastic walking around in the middle of ordinarily busy streets during what would otherwise be rush hour. Sure, it probably would be better and more politically correct if the reason for all of this was secular, but the fact is that very few people in Israel truly object to not driving or being able to shop on Yom Kippur because the resulting day is incredibly special. I know this extends to the Muslim and Chrisian populations of Tel Aviv and Jaffa, by the way, because I heard as much Arabic from bike-riders this last Yom Kippur, as I did Hebrew - so everyone was just enjoying the vehicle-free streets as well.

    By the way, no-one will be arrested or fined for driving on Yom Kippur, but people don’t like it. It’s an issue of consensus, not of coercion. And it is, in my view, quite remarkable.

    There are certainly religious fanatics in this country who look to Iranian theocracy with the misty eyes of desire, but for the most part, we are far from being anything like a theocracy, and far from wanting to be one. That doesn’t make us perfect, but one should be careful of drawing conclusions from things that appear to be parallel, but aren’t.

    By the way, I also agree with your reply to someone here about Iranian democracy. Iran was certainly not a democracy during the reign of the Shah. It was a monarchy, but it was not a European-style constitutional one. It, too, was not a free state. I think that that is a point that is often forgotten when people talk about Iran.

    My 2 cents worth :)

29. kamangir | October 9th, 2006 at 11:53 am

    Sivan,
    Your IP address shows that you are from Amsterdam.
    The idea of having problem with leather is very nice. Because, Muslims are not allowed to say prayers if they wear leather. It is interesting, isn’t it?

30. kamangir | October 9th, 2006 at 11:54 am

    Ella,
    Actually, many Iranians seem to have forgotten Shah’s real attitude and comparing him to Mullahs, they have idolized him.

31. kamangir | October 9th, 2006 at 12:05 pm

    Lisa,
    Where did I do this? Did I even draw a conclusion? I just listed what I had heard and then asked people how they think. I think we are exactly going through what happened in our last discussion. I asked a question about Israel and then tried to compare it with Iran. This is how I concluded in my last comment to you “The thing is, good for you. I do not think such a diverse, and still civilized, way of living can be implemented in Iran.” Where did I reject your opinion?
    I think it is very obvious that the Iranian regime and the Israeli one can not sit around a table and talk constructively. If we, intelligent and independent, citizens of these two countries can not talk, why would the politicians have any reason to think positively about this relationship? You say I am illogical. In what grounds do you say that? I think it is a very good opportunity because everything is in writing. Let’s ask others to read all this and help me find where I have been illogical. We can use our last email thread, as well.
    This is amazing. I use the most democrat part of my mind and still you complain that I am illogical. I am wondering what you call logical. Please do me a favor. Please rewrite my post, assuming that you have come up with the same observations and then you need to know the answer. I am eager to see what words you will choose.
    And to me this is still a nice and friendly discussion, :)

32. kamangir | October 9th, 2006 at 12:09 pm

    Nominally Challenged,
    I see your point. I am an atheist, too. And I have seen how religious extremism comes out of observance, at least it did in Iran. Any way, thanks for the discussion.

33. goli | October 9th, 2006 at 2:06 pm

    Ella,(and Lisa)
    Lets remember that thoes who gave power to these Mullas were the so-called educated people, mostly Leftists !! they wanted the Americans out, so they decieved the simple people and helped the Islamists. you know the rest of the story. This is why I don’t trust the so-called educated people anymore.
    Lisa,
    this is what the Leftist are doing around the world and in Israel. can’t you see the Leftist’s total support of Islamists?!! They sold Iran to Islamist and they will sell the wrold to Islamist again.
    Arash,
    don’t hate me. I have seen a lot so It’s easy for me to see a wrong way of thinking only after hearing a few words. memriTV.org has a video of some professor: Dr.Bulkhari, talking to college students,and telling the most stupid, illogical things to college students,trying to foster hatred of Jews. you can watch how the students are taking notes. This is what scares me. a new generation who is not learning to think logically, but emotionally.
    by the way, I am a fanatic !! Jew from the top of(the halo above) my head to the toes !! and always had fanatic Moslems as my best friends, and never saw any problem with their way of life. if Islam was not taken hostage by the government,it would never be forced on people. you know how it is in Turkey.

34. kamangir | October 9th, 2006 at 2:25 pm

    Goli,
    This sentence frightens me to death. I really have nothing to add.

    It’s easy for me to see a wrong way of thinking only after hearing a few words

    By the way, why do you think I may hate you? :)

35. ella | October 10th, 2006 at 3:16 am

    It is really very difficult to put yourself in other people shoes.
    To give you an example:
    On a jordanian blog I have been called zionist
    On another blog I have been called anti-semite.

    Arash is trying to think and in my opinion he is doing quite well. Don’t forget that we are all sum of our experiences (I know, it is trite, nevertheless it is true) and sometimes we judge what’s happening somewhere else by that experiences/our background. And that apply not only to Arash but to myself and to all of us.

36. kamangir | October 10th, 2006 at 9:13 am

    Ella,
    :)

37. Lila | January 13th, 2007 at 10:00 am

    Well although I’m an extreme latecomer… maybe you will read this nevertheless.

    I’m a Christian in Israel. I wouldn’t drive on Yom Kippur because I wouldn’t like to upset or provoke the religious sensitivities of the people around me, like I wouldn’t make noise on a Sunday afternoon in a Christian country. But when I had to bring one of my children to hospital one Yom Kippur, to Nahariya, I saw that in the North of the country lots of cars were going. Of course, Arab villages don’t observe Yom Kippur and are not forced to. The Arab people I work with don’t appear on their holy days and are freed from work (they usually show up with sweets afterwards ;-)

    So we may be bad but not SO bad.

    Found much interesting reading here, thank you.

38. kamangir | January 13th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    Lila,
    Nice to meet you. I have never been to Israel but from what I have seen Iran, many Muslims are not so modest to let minorities live their lives, independently. Let’s talk more.

39. Kamangir (Archer) - کمانگیر » Blog Archive » The Good “Zionist” | March 21st, 2007 at 8:04 am

    [...] is no secret that whenever I tried to talk to Lisa Goldman, the second sentence was the beginning of the end. [...]

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