Kamangir (Archer)

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The Iranian Dilemma: 300, The Angry People, and Phishing

Kamangir | March 13, 2007 | Category Iran

It is a repeatedly asked question that if the average Iranian is not a little Ahmadinejad, who are those who pour into the streets yelling death verdicts and punching the air. The release of the movie 300, and how the Iranian blogsphere reacted to it was an informative window to the Iranian mindset.

Aside from a few bloggers, the general mood in the blogestan is anger and demand for revenge. There is even a Google Bomb mantled to erupt in the face of those “who have portrayed Iranians as monsters”. The designer of the bomb, Lego Fish, asserts that his will is solely to collect drawings from Iranian artists and “take advantage of the wave and carry the message [that Iranians are not what is portrayed in the movie]“. However, most bloggers who embedded the link in their blogs were more outraged than that. It is becoming common to see links in Balatarin, the Iranian Digg, in which the author has nothing to say more than “I am offended and I need to avenge”.

To my experience, and also according to the results of a recent research, most Iranian bloggers are middle-class university students. When this body of rather intellectual people is so welcoming to anger, who can expect anything from us, the Iranians, other than hundred-thousand-people rallies in which people shout for something they have no clear understanding of. After all, it is no mystery that the Islamic Republic is very good in busing people from suburbs to the heart of the capital city.

At the middle of anger come those who benefit from the chaos and make fortune. Poseidon writes about an email he has received from an Iranian ISP. The email starts with patriotic utterance against the 300 and then asks the recipients to sign a petition, and forward it to all their friends. Knowing that the petition referred to in the email has in fact been signed by about 30,000 people, this seems to be a good deal. However, the address in the email (link), which does not work anymore, in fact leads to a phishing page which collects the signee’s identity. Here, both pages are shown, thanks to Poseidon (the actual page is on top and the fake page is at the bottom).

My guess is, living in a dictatorship, where you might be questioned for the simplest things, we, Iranians, have developed a passionate will for objection, when we afford to. How much this objection is reasonable and who benefits form it at the end, is another story.

p.s. This reminds me of the gigantic and continuous protests in Iran when the verdict for the Mykonos incident accused the Iranian leaders of being involved in the assassinations. I asked a person with close ties to the administration and so serious in supporting them, if she really knew what it was all about. That day she refused to have launch on a table where I was sitting. I guess that was the ugliest way she could afford to treat me.

p.s.2. Thanks to Amirc for reminding me of a mistake in the post.

Reader's Comments

trainer | March 13th, 2007 at 6:06 am
The graphic novel the movie was based on was published in 1998…before Iran was seriously on the radar…and way before 911 or the War on Terror.

It is based on a graphic novel which is loosely based on history.

Yes we know that several Greek city-states submitted to Xerxes. Yes we know that each city-state had a pro and an anti Persian faction and Xerxes had many Greek allies. Yes we know the movie wasn’t historical fact. And yes we know that the politics of the time could fill a tome, and that Leonidas had an iffy reputation among his peers. Yes we know that it was Salamis and Plataea/Mycale that ruined Xerxes plans, not Thermopylae. We know that Xerxes almost exclusively used the Medes to fight the battle.

That said…it was a movie, for pity’s sake.

The parlay between Xerxes and Leonidas was great theater, the Persian messengers were played over the top, and the movie has scenes not in the novel and visa versa.

Other than that, the Persian soldiers were shown to be courageous and tenacious. It is basically a story of how a few stood up against the many and were utterly destroyed, yet they died with honor and carved out a big chunk of history for their own. It is universally agreed that Western Civilization would have been much different if Xerxes had won.

It is closer to history as it was, than history as some would want it to be.
brando | March 13th, 2007 at 7:01 am
I love reading those comments on the petition. It really opens up some dialogue, and gives me a more accurate picture.

26366. bahram- “I hate from 300″

22714. ali- “Down of america”

22642. Arashi- “Screw White people, all racist!”

20494. Justin Farzad Coleman- “F*CK JEWS”

15139. shahla “Iranian are sivilized people. we aren’t violence”

24974. Mahdad Zarafshan- “Death to the owners of Hollywood”

I got the biggest kick out the guy saying “Screw White people”, and calling us all racist in the same breath.

Ohh, Sweet Irony.
Ù¾ÛŒÙ…Ø§Ù† | March 13th, 2007 at 7:08 am
This is not what I expected to see in your blog! Your text is full of outrage towards the Iranian community, and emotional generalizations.

“It is a repeatedly asked question that if the average Iranian is not a little Ahmadinejad”, and then you proceed to say the reactions are an informative window to “Iranian Mindset”. Great analysis! You are implying that the average educated Iranian college students are a copy of Ahmadinejad!

I guess I can understand why you are not happy with the Iranian feelings towards this movie. But I should admire your thoughtful, non-outrageous, non-revengeful, well-mannered and controlled reaction to what you think is not an appropriate feeling.

And you lead your English-speaking audience to a conclusion that even Iranian college students are a miniature copy of Ahmadinejad; a very logical generalization, indeed!

And then I wonder, what is the point of talking about your outrage to a non-Iranian audience? I guess there is some constructive educational point (hidden to me!) in talking to English-speaking audience, rather than those little college students you would like to see being educated.

Just a point about “There is even a Google Bomb mantled to erupt in the face of those â€œwho have portrayed Iranians as monstersâ€.” :

What you call it a google bomb meant to erupt in people’s face, is a community effort to dig up a website up to google’s first page. That’s all about those links. It would include art work (no outrage, no eruption in anybodies face!) about ancient Iran. People could have set up this website on their own; those average Ahmadinejad-looking college students whom you seem to hate are just helping to elevate the rank of this page, and make it feasible to be seen ! Give it even a shallow thought; is that what Ahmadinejad do? Does that matter for the entire project if somebody who links to the website feels hurt by the movie and expresses that in his/her personal blog?

Does that make the main stream Persian blogestan look like Ahmadinejad?!
shahrvand | March 13th, 2007 at 9:22 am
your post seems to have more insult about Iranian. You are not living in Iran but your Iranian. It’s true some of us are not the supporter of our government but we should not tolerate insulting our history and past lives.
hadi farnoud | March 13th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
the Persian people are so nationalist in average but you know the bads are everywhere,you can’t call it “The iranian dilemma”.
think positive.
gl
ella | March 13th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Shahrvand and Ù¾ÛŒÙ…Ø§Ù†

Give me a break, it is just a movie. Your reaction is over the board. What’s more I did not wanted to see it before but now, after all these protests, I will definitely go and see it.
Now you are saying that Kamanginr is insulting to his own people, you yourself are doing that. Look at your reaction. You and the bloggers from Iran did not see it. You and the bloggers from Iran only heard about this movie. How can you make up your mind about anything if you get the info about it from a friend of a friend of a friend or from the government?
It seems that you people do it like that:
(A)- I have heard that this movie shows hatred to Iran
(B)- Yes, it is the Hollywood, they are insulting our history!!!
(A)- You are right, the west hate us
(B) - We have to do something about
(A) - You are right, you really are right, why don’t we protest?
(B) - I have talked with Z, he agreed, we have to protest
(A) - I will e-mail couple of friends
(B) - I will talk to my class
(A) - We will show the arrogance that they can not be racist, they are racist, aren’t they?
(B) - Yes, they are.

I really thought that majority of Iranians and majority of Iranians bloggers behave differently from the arabs in the middle east, but I guess I was mistaken.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Ù¾ÛŒÙ…Ø§Ù†,
Your central argument is that I am “implying that the average educated Iranian college students are a copy of Ahmadinejad!”. You repeat this sentence at least twice but do not show why that claim is false, not that I think it is true. And for talking to the English-speaking audience, it doesn’t have any “hidden” meaning. It’s just because my blog is in English. Do you suggest I write posts which criticize Iranians in Persian? ;)
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
shahrvand,
I apologize if I offended you.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
hadi farnoud,
Come on! Do you want me to translate the last sentence in your post where you talk about the Phishing? Or we just talk about the good Iranian stuff when “others” are listening? ;)
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Ella, now you are insulting Arabs and Persians:
“I really thought that majority of Iranians and majority of Iranians bloggers behave differently from the arabs in the middle east, but I guess I was mistaken.”

What do you mean?

Plus, my point to Kamangir is no insult: First, I think the audience of this post should be Iranian, not English-speaking people. Second, I think Kamangir implicative generalization that Iranian blogger community is a little Ahmadinejad is unjust, emotional, and destructive.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Ella (and Payman),
I agree with Payman that your sentence was offensive to Arabs.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Payman,
1- I see no problem in thinking aloud in any language.
2- Give me an argument. You repeat that I have done a generalization which is wrong. Why is it wrong (not that I think so, though)?
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Kamangir,

Thanks for commenting on my comment.

I qouted excerpts why the article seems like implying Iranians are all the same. You start with asking a question of comparing Iranian’s and Ahmadinejad. I totally understand why you don’t like some sort of reactions, but I don’t think emotional reaction to what we think is not correct does any good.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
peyman,
And what is the “emotional reaction” here?
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
“When this body of rather intellectual people is so welcoming to anger …”,
“It is a repeatedly asked question that if the average Iranian is not a little Ahmadinejad, who are those who pour into the streets …”

Kamangir,
I don’t believe you really think Iranian bloggers, or those rather intellectual people are SO welcoming to anger. I just think you are reacting emotionally to what has despised you. Correct me if you are in fact believing we are all welcoming anger, and your sentences are not put togethere out of emtions…
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Peyman,
To my understanding, we are indeed welcoming to anger. For you information, I had been thinking about this post for two or three days before I could find the time to sit down and write it.
Frieda | March 13th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Oh no! now the Mullahs are insulted too!

Iranian official lashes out at Hollywood movie “300″ for insulting Persian civilization
Javad Shamqadri, an art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, accused the new movie of being “part of a comprehensive U.S. psychological war aimed at Iranian culture”, said the report.

link:http://english.people.com.cn/200703/12/eng20070312_356565.html

I think all the hype helps the movie to make more money. I guess Ahmadinejad has a share in the profits too! :-)
brando | March 13th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
I actually don’t perceive the comments on the petition as emotional reactions, but rather stone cold adult declarations of intent.

29133. Shani “..Lets show them how monsterous we could become when they insult our history and attack our community.”

16822. mina “dead of america”

I understand.
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
OK., my bad, I miscalculated your intent of writing up this post….
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
I finally saw the movie. I haven’t read the novel though and I can’t comment on how much the movie departs from the novel. But here is my 2cents and what bugged me the most:

The outfits and headgear of the Persian infantry lend themselves more to the stereotypical garments of medieval Arabian and Islamic attire than to the ancient garb of the Persian army, while the elite Immortals have been given an East Asian guise. Whatever happened to the research department? Islamic/arabs as a religion and culture did not even exist in that era. Islam came to the area several centuries later than zoroastrianism, Chrisitianity and Judism. Does Frank Miller think the Persian Empire was an Islamic Empire?? It sure looks that way. Maybe we need to send him a few copies of Encyclopedia Iranica…

I also question the motive and intentions of the makers of this movie, especially given the current climate and after reading an interview with him. There are many anti-IR, anti-Islam Iranian groups and resistance movements working actively against further Islamization and Arabization of Iran and the Mullahs. This movie sends a very wrong message and has already resulted in not only getting these resistance movements somewhat offside, but also given reason to the Mullahs to take advantage of the movie and further claim the Persian civilization and Islam as one and the same while they are feverishly trying to destroy anything pre-Islamic in Iran (Sivand dam fiasco,e.g.). Next thing we know the mullahs will claim that Cyrus and Darius were really Muslims in disguise! Therefore, the makers of the movie are reinforcing the Mullahs’ stance, even if they donâ€™t realize it. Kudos to Frank Miller for providing more materials for the Islamist’s propaganda machinary; those whom we are supposedly in an ideological war with.

It is similar to me saying that Greeks & Macedonians were Christians during Alexanderâ€™s time, it would make me an ignorant person and right off the bat I will be discredited and not taken seriously.

But let’s get proactive and find a solution to counterbalance the thinly veiled propagnda movie by telling the world the real story: Cyrus Kar is making a documentary about the Persian Empire and Cyrus the Great. Film is the most powerful information medium, and history our most valuable information resource. History forms our identities and shapes our values.

An accurate rendering of history is more important today than ever before. His goal is to set the historical record straight through the power of film. At his movie production studio, Spenta Productions, the staff are committed to reporting history, based on the latest scientific data, devoid of political or demographic bias. Here’s some excerpts from his site:
In a time of mounting hostility between East and West, few figures of history offer the unifying effect Cyrus The Great does. A factual film about this eastern conqueror, who founded the Persian Empire, will give the West a better understanding of Middle-Eastern history.

Long before the advent of Christianity and Islam, the rift between West and East was first shaped in opposition to the Persian Empire, by Herodotus, the 5th-century BCE Greek author who lived in Persian-occupied Halicarnassus. Despite the apparent conflict of interest, he is still considered the “Father of history.”

But Cyrus The Great may be just the figure to dislodge this age-old wedge dividing East and West. Admiration for Cyrus is virtually uncontested. The Hebrew Bible hails him as a “Messiah,” Greek Hellenes knew him as the “Law Giver,” and the Babylonians welcomed him as Marduk’s elect.

The empire he founded ruled the world for over 200 years and the people he conquered enjoyed more freedom and prosperity under Persian supremacy than they ever had under their own, native leadership. In his book, ‘History Of The World,’ John Roberts writes:

â€œLarge areas knew longer periods of peace under the Persian Empire than for centuries and it was in many ways a beautiful and gentle civilization.â€

For many Westerners, this may come as something of a revelation. The Persian Empire has long been vilified by Hollywood in films like Oliver Stone’s ‘Alexander’ and the soon-to-be-released ‘300′ - yet another movie based on Herodotus’ “Battle of Thermopylae.” But casting ancient Persia as a ruthless villain is a relatively new phenomenon.

Until the mid 19th century, the West knew ancient Persia as the paragon of “benevolent power,” not just through the Old Testament but also through the ‘Cyropaedia,’ written by another Greek author, Xenophon. ‘Cyropaedia’ literally means, “The Teaching of Cyrus” and was as much a part of the political library as Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince.’ In fact, it was the only alternative to Machiavelli’s theory that “It is Better To Be Feared Than Loved.”

Praised by the Bible, the Cyropaedia, and John Locke - their three most influential sources - America’s founding Fathers broke with tradition and adopted Cyrus’s model of ‘benevolent government’ for their new nation. This is one of Thomas Jefferson’s two personal copies of Xenophon’s ‘Cyropaedia.’

But Cyrus’s benevolent rule did not stem from the goodness of his heart but from the values of his culture. Piecing together Cyrus’s culture was by far the most difficult part of our research. What emerged was eye-opening.

We know Cyrus was a Persian and that the Persians were one of several Iranian tribes, which inhabited the region known today as Iran. Though little is known about Iran’s pre-Islamic culture, scholars have revealed a striking resemblance to the pagan culture of pre-Christian Europe. After all, pre-Christian Europe and pre-Islamic Iran both trace their cultural roots back to the same tribe that once roamed the Caspian steppes.

Gender equality, religious freedom, and equal justice, considered “Western values” today, were protected mainstays of Persian culture. Today, many in the Middle East consider such values meddlesome tools of Western neo-imperialism. But in an age of unspeakable human misery, it was a Middle-Easterner who, for the first time in recorded history, applied such rights to all the people within his vast dominion.

The writing on this baked, clay cylinder gives us a rare snapshot of Cyrus bestowing these very rights on the people of Babylonia after conquering it in October, 539 BCE.

Today this cylinder is considered the world’s first universal declaration of human rights and is considered by many as the precursor to the Magna Carta and the U.S. Bill of Rights.

The purpose of this film is two fold. First, it will show the West that Middle Easterners once shared many of the same values we consider “western values” today. Second it will show Middle Easterners that gender equality, religious freedom, and due process are not trappings of western neo-imperialism, but were once celebrated by their own ancestors.

For a preview of, ‘In Search Of Cyrus The Great,’ please click here.

Today this cylinder is considered the world’s first universal declaration of human rights and is considered by many as the precursor to the Magna Carta and the U.S. Bill of Rights.

The purpose of this film is two fold. First, it will show the West that Middle Easterners once shared many of the same values we consider “western values” today. Second it will show Middle Easterners that gender equality, religious freedom, and due process are not trappings of western neo-imperialism, but were once celebrated by their own ancestors.

Please donate and spread the word. He needs our help.

http://www.spentaproductions.com/work_in_progress.htm

You can also visit my blog for more info..

I have a terrible migrain headache. I will be writing more about this.
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Peyman,
Chakerim. Nice talking to you. :)
ella | March 13th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
I apologize if I insulted anybody.

Plus, my point to Kamangir is no insult: First, I think the audience of this post should be Iranian, not English-speaking people.
Peyman
Why?
Do you mean that americans and the westerners because they live in democratic countries must discuss their faults and be criticized for them not only internally, by americans and westerners themselves, but also by non-westerners; on the other hand Iranians should be exempt? You mean only Iranians should criticize Iranians, no else should have this “privilege”?
Do you mean that you want everybody to see only your good points but not your mistakes and contradictions?
Don’t you think that in this case people will be more afraid of Iran, not seeing any difference of views, not knowing what else is happening in your country?
Don’t you think that getting only positive informations from your country, and then going to your country, seeing also the bad things there, most people would not lose their idealised view and will go to other extreme, the extreme of hating your country and its people, because losing dreams is always a shock?
Think on it.

Second, I think Kamangir implicative generalization that Iranian blogger community is a little Ahmadinejad is unjust, emotional, and destructive.

look what you, yourself, propose….discuss all differences only between iranians, close the ranks, don’t tell anything to outsiders, cenzor what you are saying to foreigners. I understand that you must be careful what you say and where you say it, that you are not accustomed to “washing your dirty laundry in public” so to speak, but you need to learn to be somewhat more open, otherwise some people in the west will not see Iranians as a “human beings” but as a “idealized human beings” not real at all.

I am sorry for being didactic (or giving a sermon ;-) ) but….. well…… that’s what I think.
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Serendip,
“I also question the motive and intentions of the makers of this movie, …” You mean a conspiracy? Come on! But I agree with you that the movie sticks a non-true point in viewer’s subconscience, that Persians and Islamic culture are equivalent. That is the main intent of this page: 300 the movie
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Ella,

No I did not propose not to talk a bout Iranians with non-Iranians.
What I said is that the audience of such educational style post should be those we mean to educate; but turned out later Kamangir somehow wanted to report Iranians are anger welcoming, using this thing as an evidence. In that case, it’s written almost perfectly (could be less emotional); yet I believe that is a wrong generalization …
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Payman,
And you did manage to add the Bomb to Kamangir too. :D
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Dear Peyamn:

I hear you…but let’s move on and move forward.

Read this:

I saw 300 Saturday night at Universal Studios and it rocked! As a film (and I speak as a former film student) it was exactly what it should be; visually pleasing, well acted, and persuasive (if visceral and somewhat homo-erotic) story telling. As a history lesson (And I speak as an Iranian) it was inaccurate from our perspective; Xerxes was not back, French or Gay (to my knowledge). But this just serves to point up Ms. Ghassemian’s argument in “Fiction doesn’t deserve a petition”. It’s highly stylized fiction based on a comic book!

BUT the trouble is that Hollywood’s timely green-lighting and release of this movie is based on what they always base their decisions on (and I Speak as a former Paramount employee) it’s based on social alleogry which guarantees box office dollars. A social allegory is a story line that echoes the current mood in the country, and when well-planned these films are always big hits. I’ll spare you a lesson in cinematic history but if you recall “Not Without My Daughter” was also released right around the hostage crisis. And it did some damage to our image and it stung.

So there is some reason for righteous indignation! We should band together and do something. But sign a petition? I’ll sign it as a sign of solidarity, but heck, that’s just an exercise in futility. It’s a story from the Greek perspective and they have a right to tell their story however they want. That’s the 1st amendment. What we need to do is band together in a less impotent and whiny way. We need to tell our own story, though our eyes.

I mentioned this to a friend the other day and he laughed accusing me of being naive; his argument was that we don’t have that kind of clout. And he may be right. Because in my experience every time some Iranian breaks some barrier to dominant ideology, all we do is knock them down. I’ve heard Iranians say Christiane Amanpour is too “Ommol”, I’ve heard people ridicule Anousheh Ansari for spending silly money on a fancy “roller coaster ride in space”. When a group of cool Iranians made a comic book, bringing our Ferdowsi’s Rostam into the consciousness of American kids as a cool super hero they were even recognized at the Library of Congress, but most of what I hear from Iranians is that they did Rostam’s hair and eyes all wrong!

Wake up call to all Iranians: If you don’t rise and stand on your well-healed Iranian toes and band together a little more pro-actively to support one another in their valiant efforts to rescue our own culture and image then what right do we have to get mad when others don’t respect it? IF every Iranian who will sign this petition, had donated $20 to Cyrus Kar’s movie about Cyrus the Great SpentaProductions.com the darn thing would have been made by now, and we’d have a heck of an easier time convincing the rank and file that yes, there are two sides to every story.

But we have to agree on that story among our selves first. Are we proud of each other or not? Are we prepared to band together like the 300 did? Or not? Are we going to support each and every effort each one of us makes at great expense to ourselves to improve our lot? Or not? Because if not, even I will be tempted to root for the 300 that did.
http://www.iranian.com/Shorts/2007/march2007.html#12b

Let’s help our community to make more films and write more books like Abbas Milani’s book ,”The Lost Wisdom”. Let’s support whomever is trying to tell the truth from our side. Part of this is our own fault for not being more active in educating ourselves and our host countries about our culture.
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
yes [:D], sorry if you don’t like that [:D]
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Peyman,
I am not sure how I should feel, now that I know it was intentional. Well, you did not use any offensive word so I guess I do not have the right to edit that comment. One for you.
peyman | March 13th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
I did not planned for it, but it comes to putting a link to the page, then why not!
Thanks for leaving it there.
M | March 13th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Kamangir,
You can also read the introduction of Frank Millre’s book (300) written by Victor David Hanson, an American professor of “history”, to find out more about the intentions and presumptions.
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Kaman: I think you would want to read some of the comments on this site. Frank Miller himself is asking in an open forum at Yahoo this question: “What lessons learned from Ancient Greece apply to modern society and civilizations? There are about 50,000 comments…It gives you an idea how the movie is shaping public opinion:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=ApMOZngRoWzb2lmT2oof.2WHxQt.?qid=20070306092424AALWtTq&cp=16&tp=88#all-answers
Tom | March 13th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
The thing that I think is lost on the majority of people who will actually watch this movie…meaning the middle class, Joe Americas and Joe Canadas, is that Christianity and Islam were hundreds and hundreds of years away.

However, you say “Persia” to a basic educated western person and they undoubtedly think “Persian Gulf” and then think Arabs and then Muslims…they wouldn’t even know what Zoroastrianism was if it jumped up and bit them in the butt.

So to a lot of people, the Persians of the movie 300 are Muslim. Obviously incorrect and deserves explanation. Perhaps the director could have made it very apparent that Muslims and Christians hadn’t been invented at the time of the battle. :-p

As for some of you busting on Kamangir for speaking out about Iran…well if I have southern roots and my ancestors supported slavery and the lowered status of blacks in historic America, does that mean that I should support the KKK of today because we share the same lands or heritage?

Iran, while occupying some of the same lands and tribes as ancient Persia, is as much Persia today as the Cancun of today is a part of the Mayan Empire. :-D
Kamangir | March 13th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Serendip,
Thanks for the link.
choclosteve | March 13th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Wow- I’m surprised at this reaction to a movie. I did not realize so many people expect a movie to be historacly accurate, or think that it would have been nice to live in EITHER Greece or Persia in those days. Those guys running things back then were assholes. We should be proud that we are not like them, or ashamed if we are
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Kaman: You’re welcome.

Tom: thank you. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Persians/Iranians don’t define themselves (unlike Arabs to some extent) by their religion, HOWEVER, most westerners define Persians as moslems. They are often shocked when they realize most of the Iranian who live in Los Angeles are Jewish-Persians and the ones living in Glendale, CA are mostly Christian/Armenian-Persian…Why Iranians are defined by their religion, it’s a mystery to me. I don’t define Americans in terms of their religion and I don’t think all my American friends and neighbors are the same just because they’re Americans. Even Americans don’t assume that all Americans are the same…Do they?
Mashdihassan | March 13th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Tom, you are the best!

We should think about “who is the target of the movie?” and what is affect of showing it to that part of the society? Obviously a well educated person doesn’t simply accept the whole thing.

The problem comes up when the blue-collar sees the Persian beasts with the assumption that this is a war between the religions. We are in one side and the west in the other side. This will help them to have even more prejudice about other people.
Mashdihassan | March 13th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
BTW, here is what Kamangir wrote about Borat some time ago ( http://kamangir.net/2007/01/27/borat/ ):

Kamangir: Embarrassing for me because of having spent a good evening with my wife and a friend watching an offenssive show which is not even humorous.

Kamangir again: Good to read that you have hated the movie, too, at least when you watched it for the second (or the third) time.

Honestly I don’t get it. If using a real country’s name for making money (or any other reasons) is immoral and offensive, why is it not with 300?

BTW, you probably know that all the words that Borat uses in his comedy are wrong, the words are meaningless or completely irrelevant, the place that he made some parts of the movie in, is in Romany not Kazakstan at all and …

I have a Kazak friend who really gets hurt by some stupid people because as soon as he says he is from Kazakstan they start smiling and telling him that they have seen Borat.

Kamangir, if Borat made that movie about Iranians what would be your reaction?

Of course 300 is not at all in the level of movies like Borat. But the point is misinforming the society about other nations.

I wonder why such movies are not made based on some symbolic names? why do they use real names when they know they want to make something far from the reality?
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
This site : “300 the movie info” is trying to compile an art project featuring “Ancient Persia” to counter the terribly inaccurate depiction made by this so-called fictional movie that will surely contribute in widening existing mis-understandings and lack of knowledge amongst non-Iranians!

http://300themovie.info/frank-millers-300.html

Lastly to have an accurate picture of how Persian forces looked like at the time of the Achamenid Empire you can have a look at this photobucket page on ancient Iranian soldiers (although this page has soldiers covering all of Iran’s dynasties and is not limited to the Achamenid period)

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/aryamehr11/Ancient%20Iranian%20Soldiers/?start=all
Serendip | March 13th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
This is interesting:
Iranian-born singer Azam Ali is quickly becoming a fixture in Hollywood.

She’s lent her voice to a variety of soundtracks — from TV shows like Alias and Prison Break, to movies like Matrix Revolutions and Dawn of the Dead.

It seems that when directors want a sort of futuristic sound that somehow sounds ancient — they pick up the phone and call Azam Ali.

Her latest big-screen effort is for the film “300″ which opens tomorrow in US theaters.

http://www.theworld.org/?q=node/8567
Serendip | March 14th, 2007 at 1:10 am
The irony:

Iranian-born singer Azam Ali is quickly becoming a fixture in Hollywood.

She’s lent her voice to a variety of soundtracks — from TV shows like Alias and Prison Break, to movies like Matrix Revolutions and Dawn of the Dead.

It seems that when directors want a sort of futuristic sound that somehow sounds ancient — they pick up the phone and call Azam Ali.

Her latest big-screen effort is for the film “300″ — which opens tomorrow in US theaters.

http://www.theworld.org/?q=node/8567
choclosteve | March 14th, 2007 at 1:26 am
You insult my intelligence if you think that watching 300, a movie about a war that happened 2,500 years ago and based on a comic book tells me anything about present day Iranians or Greeks, or that Borat tells me anything about Kazakstan or the US. I was once told by an Indian who had never been to the US, that he knew all about US by watching movies. I wondered what sort of weird ideas he had of US. Maybe he watched Fargo and Saving Arizona- good movies, but not depicting typical US life
Serendip | March 14th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Dr. Hamed Vahdati Nasab:

http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2007/March/Persians/index.html
Mashdihassan | March 14th, 2007 at 3:12 am
Choclosteve,

So you mean there are no uneducated or low educated people in the US? perhaps I don’t know much about Americans but so far I have seen so many people in here who have no clue about the outside world.

The worse thing is that they simply tell you “who cares?” when you tell them that an average amount of garbage generated by an American in a day can feed so many poor people in other parts of the world. How can people be so careless about wasting resources? this is probably possible only when they first convince themselves that other people do not exist.

In almos all countries in Europe, when you go for shopping you should carry a bag with you. In the US but they put only two or three items in a plastic bag and then turn it to the next bag. In only two weeks I collected a full cabinet of plastic bags in my kitchen.

Or what about this one… an average American car has usually at least a 3,500 cc engine. And there is no education or any effort to teach people that if you want to drive to work alone, you shouldn’t use a huge 8 cylinder SUV!

I can tell you more and more about Americans ignoring other people. Of course not purposely but because of so many facts such as geograpical isolation, wealth, and excessive oriention towards entertaintments which only grows pop culture…

Saying all that, I found the people here to be the best people in the world in terms of being honest and friendly. I don’t remember any experience that in the US someone trying to cheat me, this is not possible in other parts of the world!
Mashdihassan | March 14th, 2007 at 3:25 am
No offence but just as a break:

The World According to America
Lesly | March 14th, 2007 at 5:04 am
I went to the theater and saw this movie. It would pain me to think Iranians would go to war over a movie that isn’t worth the gum on the bottom of my shoe. I want my three hours back.
choclosteve | March 14th, 2007 at 5:20 am
Mashdihassan. Of course I do not mean that the average American is not ignorant of the outside world- the average American is VERY ignorant of the outside world, and to top it off, almost half of American voters voted for Bush2 twice. We are also very wastefull, and have little concept of how much is enough. The few of US that have an interest in the outside world will look at that movie and want to know more about historical Greece and Iran, and the rest will remain ignorant. I do not think that anybody will think that present day Greeks or Persians are like those who lived 2,500 years ago, and for my part, I would not like it to be so. As to your nice comments about Americans not trying to cheat you, I am happy to know that you only met the nice majority that can also be found in most any country. I enjoy foreign travel because it shows me that folk everywhere are friendly and hospitable, and I am glad you have been treated here as well as I have been when in foreign lands.
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 5:22 am
Mashdihassan,
I hated Borat because it was a waste my time. When Matthew asked me “Embarrassing for who, Borat or the Americans?” I replied, “Embarrassing for me because of having spent a good evening with my wife and a friend watching an offensive show which is not even humorous.” The movie was simply offensive because I watched it with my wife and another lady. Did I ever mention anything about the country the movie is allegedly offending?
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 5:24 am
Guys,
I am really happy that an American-Iranian discussion is happening here. Keep going! ;)
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 5:24 am
Serendip,
Thanks for the link. I liked his point.
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 5:25 am
Lesly,
Was it that bad? I am going to watch it next week.
trainer | March 14th, 2007 at 5:56 am
Interesting that a movie based on a comic book generates so much controversy. You need to also consider a few things….

The scenes of political intrigue in Sparta were not in the graphic novel, but are taken directly from the writings of the Greeks of the time. Persia had a HUGE presence in that part of the world.

The filmmakers biggest problem was the method in which the armies fought in those days. The Phalanx might be militarily useful, but it makes for boring theater…that’s why they only showed it once - then the actors fought as individuals.

The filmmaker stated that the dress on both sides was not true to history - again, both sides fought in light armor and he needed to differentiate between them. Elephants et al were not present.

I have read the history of Xerxes, and the strangest thing to me was how he returned to Persia after the battle of Salamis and lost himself in hedonism and pleasure until his assassination.

My question to you is: The Greeks were all over this and many ancient authors had something to say that made it down thru history. Where is the Persian side of the story. Persia did not conquer Greece, but neither was the Persian empire destroyed. Weren’t there any ancient Persian writings on this war?
shimbalkhaan | March 14th, 2007 at 6:07 am
Archer

Again for my curiosity, what did you exactly find offensive in Borat?
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 6:42 am
shimbalkhaan,

Again for my curiosity, what did you exactly find offensive in Borat?

A naked ugly guy.
Kamangir | March 14th, 2007 at 6:42 am
Trainer,

My question to you is: The Greeks were all over this and many ancient authors had something to say that made it down thru history. Where is the Persian side of the story. Persia did not conquer Greece, but neither was the Persian empire destroyed. Werenâ€™t there any ancient Persian writings on this war?

I am afraid I don’t know the answer to your question.
brando | March 14th, 2007 at 7:33 am
Trainer: “The Phalanx might be militarily useful, but it makes for boring theaterâ€¦thatâ€™s why they only showed it once”

Yes, yes, yes. I thought the exact same thing. I didn’t want to mention it because I’d sound like a military snob, pointing out tactics flaws in movies when the goal is just good cinema. But I’m so glad that I wasn’t the only one to spot that. Good catch.

Why weren’t the first three rows grinding while the next rows harvested? When they got pulled out of the cave, they just should have regrouped and done it over and over and over, because that’s how I thought the battle went. Phalanx without rest for days, while the Persians funneled troops into the trap. At any rate, that wouldn’t have been very fun to watch. Twirling and slashing while cracking jokes makes for more fun.
Lesly | March 14th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Kamangir,

Yes it was that bad. I don’t see how it was remotely homoerotic unless the director took a lot of liberties with costumes. I mean Greeks were vain to begin with. You can tell by statues carved in the severe and sexual euphemisms in poetry dedicated to anyone they admired. I’ll tell you what was gay though, constant references to “back sliding” Athenians, the city-state that would eventually monopolize Greece politically and militarily. It’s like they just needed to fill the script with something so they came up with lame jokes. I knew the graphic novel took liberties with history but I was disappointed they were so many. Read this to see what I mean.

The fighting scenes were okay. The choreograph was… sharp, but too individualistic. I expected them to hold, push, and stab, hold push and stab for hours. I didn’t even think the CGI blood and severed limbs were all that and I like violent films.

The acting was wooden (no joke intended). The best actor was the evil politician. The acting sucks and the narrative voiceover was the most annoying feature. I kept thinking, oh my God shut up, let me figure it out!

Poster-worthy eye candy. That’s it.
choclosteve | March 14th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I saw Borat and thought it was crude, stupid, and a waste of my time. I do not understand why people have paid so much attention to it
ella | March 14th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Choclosteve

the average American is VERY ignorant of the outside world,
Unfounded generalization. The average american is no more ignorant of the outside word that average French, average Iranian or average man from India.
BTW You mean that you are not an average?
to top it off, almost half of American voters voted for Bush2 twice.
You mean that people voting for Bush are more ignorant of the outside world than Iranians voting for Ahmadinejad?
The few of US that have an interest in the outside world will look at that movie and want to know more about historical Greece and Iran, and the rest will remain ignorant.
You are again generalizing, you think that only you or people like you are curious, all others are not.
I enjoy foreign travel because it shows me that folk everywhere are friendly and hospitable, and I am glad you have been treated here as well as I have been when in foreign lands.
You mean you have been presumably to India and no person from India cheated you,. You were to Japan and no japanese looked down on you and said that he does not understand your Japanese when you are a translator of japanese language during governmental meetings (as was the case with one person I knew). You were to China and everybody were nice. Chinese are always nice, you should know the language though, to understand how they are taking about you in Chinese.
Yes, foreign travel is nice, but the nice people often seem less nice when you know their language, understand their comments and understand why they are so nice to you.

trainer

Perhaps I can answer your question. From what I have read the Persian looked at these wars as somewhat of side-line. They wanted to conquer Greece, true, but Greece with their small towns, their primitive buildings, their bickering populations was not really very important for the Persian Empire. It was not life or death proposition for them as it was for Greeks.
Look at it that way, was some small african country, say territories of present day Zambia, really as important for British empire as India? No way. It was the same for Persians. The war was imperative for Greeks, it was not very important for Persians.
Mashdihassan | March 14th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Very informative article:

Sparta? No. This is madness
An expert assesses the gruesome new epic
Serendip | March 14th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
A UK-based Iranian blogger take on the whole affair:

I haven’t watched the Hollywood “Historic Epic” 300 yet and if I ever do, it will probably be on a pirate DVD. I have had lots of emails about boycotting the movie and protests etc. In my experience however these kind of actions against a movie are either pointless or they just create more publicity for it.

Anyone with half a brain cell also knows that when it comes to historical accuracy, Hollywood is pathetically hopeless. Sensationalism brings more revenue than historical accuracy, thats a fact.

However if we are so concerned about the historical reputation of our ancestors, we could do a lot more good than sending emails to each other to boycott a movie which is already breaking box office records. Few years ago a young director by the name of Alexander Jovy wanted to make an epic movie about Cyrus the Great. Some of my Iranian readers may remember me interviewing Alexander on Azadi TV, outside the British Mueseum in London.

The budget for the Cyrus movie was estimated at 50 Million Pounds. Two non-Iranian investors had each provided 20 Million Pounds towards the making of the film. Both investors wanted to show the spirit of tolerance and greatness in Cyrus. Had the film been made, it would have been a source of pride for all of us. Yet not one Iranian investor came forward to close the remaining Â£10M balance!

Even people like Iranian born Lord David Alliance, with a huge personal fortune, were approached. Lord Alliance however was not interested, complaining that the UK Labour government had closed the tax loop holes for movie investments. One would have thought the Jewish Lord Alliance, would have had more incentive to make the Cyrus movie than just think about the tax loop holes.

So if our heritage and our ancestors are now being shown in a bad light, lets point one finger at Hollywood but four fingers at ourselves. Iranian ex-pat community includes many super wealthy individuals, the vast majority of them have lots of money but no sense and passion about Iran.

http://azarmehr.blogspot.com/2007/03/300.html
John Kaiser | March 14th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Once again a comic (this time in movie form) is making folks in the Middle East flip out. Somehow, I am not surprised.
Frieda | March 14th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
John Kaise,
“fliping out” over “perceived” things is a good way of describing the whole Middle East.
thescoundrel | March 14th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
I think too many people expect Hollywood to be something they are not. Hollywood makes movies. Those movies may or may not have some factual base to them. In fact if Hollywood thought it would sell tickets to the movie they would dress up all the characters in drag and portray them as gender challenged warriors waiting for sex change operations to become scientifically possible. Hollywood has never cared about facts other than as a starting point in their film. The facts are always lost or twisted in the storyline. That is because truth normality is usually boring and to make millions of dollars, that Hollywood wants for their investment in the story, the product has to be shocking and dramatic. Hollywood is a fantasy world where elitists create make believe fairy tales from history and imagination. And as long as they rake in the cash they could worry less about facts or whom they offend. The more furor raised about the film â€“ the more money they make from people flocking to the theatres to see what the fuss is all about.
Mashdihassan | March 15th, 2007 at 2:03 am
John,

This is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTRmOBSLSU

Enjoy buddy… :)
Lesly | March 15th, 2007 at 2:19 am
The best review. :-p

http://hub.ou.edu/articles/article.php?item_id=1851205885&section_id=57469591
Frieda | March 15th, 2007 at 4:00 am
Mashdihassan,
I saw that youtube video..it was funny, but don’t you think you would get the same reaction from average people in Iran or Pakistan or Africa?
Tom | March 15th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Mash,

I love those videos! They do that all the time over here. Some of the answers are just amazing. :D I think every late night talkshow (Letterman, Leno, O’Brien) have done this.

There is a big area between people who really know what’s going on and those who just know what is beng fed to them through the media (Britney, Timberlake, blah blah).

I bet it’d be interesting to do that in Iran, but you probably couldn’t get the camera crews in to just wander around asking questions and filming all day long.

It’s not just Americans who are divided in to those who know and those who are oblivious/mislead. I wonder what the majority Iranian answers would be about the occurance of the Holocaust?
choclosteve | March 15th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Ella, I am not average, and I suspect you are not either. Most Americans do not have a passport. A larger % of Europeans speak 2nd and more languages. Most everywhere else the newspapers are looking at US. I catch up on international news when in other countries. I have had people try to cheat and steal from me both here and around the world. I have an interesting collection of stories. But, mostly I have met friendly, curious, and helpful folk, and have come home feeling good and thinking of the next trip. A few years ago I saw the dvd Fargo in a youth hostel in Salta, Argentina. Very popular. Most everyone had seen Michael Moore’s latest, and I was the only American in the international group. I had been seeing The Simpsons most every time I saw a tv. In Tarija, Bolivia, there is Hamburger Alley, with a Homer’s and 2 Crusty’s, one open all night for the disco crowd. Good graphics and hamburgueses. Could be some pretty strange ideas about who we are. I hear they did not even get the costuming right in 300. Did they show elephants in the movie? I want to learn about the times when Islam was replacing Zoroasterism. I’m going to reread Gore Vidal’s Creation. Anyone read it? I see he has a chapter: The Greek Wars Begin.
ella | March 15th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Choclesteve

I think Thescoundrel gave you an answer why Hollywood did not got costuming and other things right. Hollywood, long time ago, tried to do a movie based on Polish author, Sienkiewicz. In this movie, Quo Vadis, costuming was wrong, dialogues were wrong, other things were wrong too.
That’s Hollywood, it is all about entertainment, I don’t expect from it adherence to historical facts.

As for the beginnig of Islam in Persia, there are tons of books on the market. The problem with them is that many of them are politicized (aka religiocized ;-) ), so one have to be very careful when reading explanations of historical facts.

Finally
The popularity of amercan hamburgers, movies and Michel Moore does not translate to knowing USA, its culture and its people. It does not translate to knowing life in small towns in US or CAnada.
….Argentina…. Very popular. Most everyone had seen Michael Mooreâ€™s latest, and I was the only American in the international group.
As for Michael Moore latest, if I were there, you still would be the only one person living in north america watching his movie. (and I do live in North America)
Mashdihassan | March 16th, 2007 at 1:22 am
Sorry that this loooong message. Hope that you read it till the end…

The whole point is about a simple concept: I try to explain it with an example. I am new to the US and still I am lreaning a lot about the people in here. My roommate is a Canadian guy. Naturally he doesn’t know much about me and he has some stereotypes in his mind about an Iranian. I too have stereotypes about him.

This guy cannot talk without using unpleasant words. One day we went to Bestbuy to buy a wireless router and he selected something that was really useless. I told him, hey lets buy a Motorola XYZ and he replied “who f*cks that sh*t”! Believe me, this is not possible in Iran to talk with someone like this. They simply get offended. Then we ended up to a hot discussion and I couldn’t make him understand that the sentence was really offencive to me because it was my idea that was important to me and he ignored it with the worst words…

Not only he didn’t understand me, but he started using a worse literature till the moment that I was angry. I told him, you are an idiot, you are sick, you have a dirty mouth and your parents didn’t teach you alphabet of behaviour… (this was the first time that after so many years I became so angry!)

When I was telling those words, I was thinking about his aggressive reaction because based on my culture it should be a big insult for him. I was ready for him to show his angry reaction. But surprisingly he simply took it and became quiet! I couldn’t really digest it!

After some time living together I heard his laptop sounds like “Heeeeey motherf*cker! you got a mail!”. I thought, man! if he enjoys calling himself like that, my words were nothing to him and that’s why he didn’t feel any insult from me. Probably he thought I was so pleasant to him when I said those words - ha ha ha…

You know, one thing that we should understand in this modern world is that, any concept can have a different level in different cultures. I am sure if one day my roomate sees his mother is sleeping with another man he doesn’t even care. Then I compare it with Iranian culture, calling a person like motherf*cker in Iran can simply end to a bloody fight because honour is everything for those people. They have to take their honor even if they lose everything. Otherwise they will be humiliated by the society.

This is why a westerns feel that those people in middle east are so strange. Why on the earth they should care at all that in a hollywood movie they are showing our ancestors like that :D

I really understand both sides and I think it is nothing but “lost in translation” :)
choclosteve | March 16th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Hey Ella- Somehow you are missing what I trying to say. % of young US travellers is low. Often I can travel for more than a month without talking to another American while talking almost daily with other rich country travelers. Movies do not give an accurate picture of a country, particularly cartoons. When is the last time you saw a high quality American film about England or Holand or Denmark? Most likely they have seen more than Michael Moore about the US, or even visited here. Most everywhere folks know more about US than we know of them. Unfortunately when this understanding is from movies or cartoons, that information is often strange or weird and will be seen everywhere. It is worthwhile to cultivate a healthy distrust of movies being accurate, but Hollywood and Balllywood crank them out, and folks watch them
Nouri | March 16th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
A lot of folks in the States found this film offensive. If you live in the US and are young, either in secondary or uni, and Middle Eastern, movies like this are not your friend. These kinds of things have affects on how people view and treat you, whether or not you are Persian or Arab or whatever. It makes not just Persians, but all ‘thousand nations” of the Persian Empire (who appearently are black) into a horde of unhuman monsters. People are sensitive about this. Black people make fusses when they are made out poorly on television or films, so do Asians. The Iranian Americans fussing seem to be doing something that is healthy.

I am not Iranian, but I found this movie offensive, as someone who respects history and some one who is concerned about the kind of thoughts and responses that this movie could bring about. The movie does not state that it is not meant to be historical. The director(s) said this after the fact, when questions started to be raised. The man who made the comic book it is based on has made numerous statements both before the film’s release and after about his sentiments towards the “East”, and I am very weary of those who speak with two tongues. The negative views that Frank Miller espouses about “Eastern” peoples (Muslims, Iranians, and Arabs have been the target of his statements) are very obviously seen in this movie where such peoples are not even portrayed as remotely human or if they are they are made to be the foil of all that is civilized. Concern is justified.
Tom | March 16th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Mash,

It’s definitely a different spin. People are different all over. I wouldn’t assume that your roommate wouldn’t care about his mother sleeping with another man. (Btw, what the heck does that have to do with his use of bad words?) Some people are inclined to pepper their sentences with swears. It’s not insulting. It’s just that they lack the vocabulary to emphasize their points with other adjectives. The easiest way to emphasize is to throw in a random nasty word. I’m guilty of it around my close friends and I have a pretty good grasp on public speaking. Sadly, it’s pretty common in the US/Canada. However, you can not equate the words with a lack of honor.

It’s been said before, but one of the most common childhood rhymes we learn in America is “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.”

Getting in to a fight over words is pathetic and I would be inclined to believe that the most rational determination of “honor” after a fight over words, is that both parties lose it and the person who hit the other for the words loses more. No need for violence over words or pictures.

It’s why Americans don’t freak out when someone burns a flag or an effigy of our country/culture. We don’t take it personally and if you are American it’s your RIGHT to express yourself. :-)

PS: Hopefully you find a better roommate in the future. :-D
Mashdihassan | March 16th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Yes Tom, you are exactly right. As I said I am learning this culture and I don’t want to separate from my roommate at least for a month. I should face it and learn more.

And a question for you… is there anything that can make a person feel like being insulted or make him/her angry by that?

For example in my culture, taking care about family is the most important thing. Especially for a man, it is extremely important to take care about his family’s female members; mother, sister, and doughter.

I have seen in so many movies that an American gentleman is also like that. When his doughter is cheated by a boy, the father interferes in the relationship or threatens the boy. Or I remember in American Pie one of the boys who was taking the party at his home goes to the bed room and sees his mother sleeping with his classmate and he just falls down and goes unconscious.

So, you can multiply this feeling by thousand and it will become an eastern culture. By eastern, I do not mean the chinese, japanese, etc. I mean, turkish, kurdish, arabic, persian, pakistanis, indians, and all those little countries in that area.

Now please think about it. If you know that something is okay in your culture but it is offensive for another person, why should you persist to do that? BTW, this is exactly the difference between the British culture and the American culture. The briton will completely behave in the framework of the foreign society but the american will continue living in his own cultural framework.

This is why britons can do anything but nobody complains about it. But an american may simply do a normal thing (based on his/her own culture) but make so much noise and hatred in other societies…

I guess both sides need to learn something, then only we can have a better world :)
thescoundrel | March 17th, 2007 at 10:27 am
I think one of the hardest things for people to understand about the USA is that foul language has received political and legal protection unless it falls under a hate crime statute. If you challenge the usage of those words you are bombarded by politicians and lawyers screaming their rights to free speech are impaired by the challenge. Many of the nastier words have been ingrained into the culture. The entertainment forms of comedy and movies have made many words I would consider improper usage under most circumstances - common practice and a part of everyday language. It does not make it right and I find it offensive. But the entertainment industry buddies up with extremist politicians and lawyers to keep the practice safe. But as far as I am concerned there is a far far far difference between the right to free speech and the current unrestrained use of language that is insulting or profane.
choclosteve | March 17th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Mash, It is interesting to note that every father is a mother f—-er, but most of us think of it as the most insulting of cuss words, which can be used in light hearted banter or as fighting words. Maybe your roomate is doing you a favor by attempting to show you how to lighten up about words. Lightening up gives one more control of situations. It enables one to react rationally instead of emotionally. So, if someone tries to anger me into a fight by calling me a mother f—er, I smile and say: “You bet, I have a beautiful daughter and a great grandson and the sex was fantastic”. Usually such people are either drunk, stupid or both, and it takes them awhile to process what has been said, while any audience is already laughing and I can be walking. It is easy to play someone in an emotional state for a fool, but not always safe. What is red, white, blue and black and floats face down in the river? A stupid white guy telling nigger jokes in a black neighborhood. We were working in the Panama Canal Zone and we had a new arrival home for dinner. He was a big macho Texan, and objected to my calling the US “:Gringolandia”, as my circle of friends did. “Those are fighting words where I come from.” he said. Unfortunately, we have one of those types of Texans in the White House, only he is not as big as that one who objected to being called gringo, and who I chose my words carefully when I was around. I enjoy laughing at myself- Bush and that Texan do not. A good place to learn to laugh at one’s self is when in another culture
saye | March 17th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Dear Kamangir

I appreciate your post. First of all, this over-reaction was not expected by any means. Personally I got surprised to see how mentally weak can be most of us. It ironically showed that the people of ME still are not mature enough to have nukes for self-defense purposes. Because they, even living abroad for years, cant distinguish between rationally different situations.

Anyway, I found Babel more offensive, all good people in this movie are Americans, even European are weak, narrow-minded and terrified people who cant stand to help an American family and just prefer to scape soon (very strong symbolism of the situation in Iraq). Mexicans are some super-brutal, crazy and stupid people. The only good Mexican woman is an idiot cant stay home.She stupid accepts the risk of going out of the country with 2 innocent typical American white children!
Let’s not talk about Morocco at all. Just imagine that the only other good guy in the story (in addition to Americans) is that tourist-guide (I think Anwar) who helps Americans!
Japanese are some mentally ill people with lots of mental problems! They negligents dont know they should not give their rifles to Arabs because those might be used against innocents Americans.
And ………………..

If there is a necessity to sign a petition, this movie is more blameful!

Sorry, English is my 3rd Language!
Mashdihassan | March 18th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Thescoundrel,

You are right, but you know the thing that confuses me is that it’s not like always people are calling each other with such words in here. For example, I have two my managers who are really polite and respectful. I have never heard them saying “God damn” or “What the hell”. I remember once a colleague of us said “this God damn computer” and my manager said “excuse meeeee?” that means he didn’t expect that sentence!

I am now confused, confused, confused!

Believe me when you go to a completely new society, you become like a kid. No matter how old you are! :) when I read my own comments I feel they are very childish. May be that’s why Iranians always keep quiet and hide their feelings about such things that surely make them shocked when they face it for the first time!
Mashdihassan | March 18th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Choclosteve

Thank you very much for your message. Yes, you are right and as I said I don’t want to run away now. Unknowingly, he is teaching me to understand how things are different in here. So, I have to be grateful to him :)

I also learned something from you today. I mean your reaction to a drunk or stupid person :)

And hope that you, Thescoundrel, Tom, and other Americans stay with us in this weblog and keep sending your ideas. We haven’t been talking with each other for decades so now we need to talk several time more than other nations ;)

And please do not control your words. Let us exactly know what has an American in mind about us even if it is bitter for most of Iranians… Thanks :)
choclosteve | March 18th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Mashdi, Laughter and smiles calm stormy waters, and are lots of fun. You should be able to get lots of laughs by telling stories about your difficulty in understanding Americans use of swear words. I can sure relate to becoming a kid again when in a new culture. Fortunately, I find it fun. Kids tend to laugh and smile more than adults. Enjoy your second childhood. Mostly, children are learning more per hour than adults. I am 66 years old, 6′3″, with blonde hair, so there is no way that I can blend in while in Latin America. When I walk down a South American street with my blonde daughter, my son in law, who is Philipine/American and can blend in, likes to follow us and watch people stare at us. Then we all have a good laugh about how entertaining people find us. Sometimes I wish I could juggle or stand on my head, but simply being a stranger in a strange land is usually entertaining enough, especially for kids.
naj | March 18th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I checked out the website of a couple of those people who were shrugging off the reaction to 300 as typical Middle Eastern flippary!

I noticed what was missing in their blog-world to be a political understanding of the world. One was boasting about losing weight, the other about … well nothing!

Middle Easterners do not get OFFENDED because of cartoons or comics. They react to the “political” implications of those representations. But I guess, if you are a typical western sleep-walker, who live in the Disney dream-land, you do not have those sensitivities.

Once the rest of teh world has (unjustly) stereotypified you as dumb-uneducated-ignorant-consumerist-racist-gun ho-rude-selfish-decadant-degenerate-white trash-violence lovin’-bomb throwing-oil stealing-Iraqi gilr raping-prisoner torturing-dudes, then you may get offended at mass-cultural machines reducing your entire Western civilization to a cartoonish image as such described by the stereotype!

Right?
Kamangir | March 18th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Naj,
I don’t really know (if I understood what you mean)!
Mashdihassan | March 18th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Me neither!
NeutralObverser | March 19th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
If the Iranian public would get as fired up about freeing themselves from their dictator and supreme council, they could throw off the yoke of tyranny plaguing their country. It’s only a movie. It was NOT funded by the U.S. Government. Stop being so sensitive. People should be able to express themselves without fear of being assassinated or blown up with explosives.

Freedom of choice and expression are part of being human. Quit being brainwashed by your oppressive governments. THINK FREE - BE FREE
choclosteve | March 20th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Hey Neutral- Ahmadinejad was elected, so he is not a dictator any more than Bush2 is. Seems that both idiots terms in office end around the same time.
NeutralObserver | March 21st, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Do you really think Ahmadinejad is running the country. He can’t sneeze without the supreme council’s approval. This is another totalitarian government masquerading as freely elected one. WAKE UP! YOUR GOVERNMENT IS LEADING YOU INTO A WAR WITH NOT ONLY THE UNITED STATES, BUT WITH EVERY SUNNI COUNTRY AROUND YOU.
thescoundrel | March 22nd, 2007 at 9:38 am
Mashdihassan, I do not blame you for being offended by much of the extreme language usage. I have been born and raised in the USA and I am often offended. Attempting to offend others has become a big part of social interaction - in part due to comedian trends. I get people visiting my blog offended at me when I exclude posts with language I find inappropriate. A lot of the foul language is used as an expression of rebelling against the establishment. There is not a lot one can do. You can express your dissatisfaction to the offender but usually that is the worst thing to do. Often when you do that they know it gets under your skin and pour the gasoline on the fire. Sometimes it works to ignore the person, that does not always work and in my opinion is often an unacceptable option. That leaves reasoning -but that to is often difficult as the offender often does not understand (more likely does not want to understand) the reason a person would object to the language. Most of the time I just avoid the individual. But a lot of times, if I have to be around the person, I find something that is offensive to them and treat them to the same until I can work a tradeoff. But then I can get away with that, as few are capable of physically challenging me.