Donate Your Kidney, to fight Israel
By Kamangir • Mar 8th, 2008 • Category: Iran, Islamic Republic, Israel“The ceremony will focus on designating rewards for the assassination of three Israeli top officials”. This is how the close-to-state website Farda describes an event to be held in Tehran. The three officials are Ehud Barack, Meir Dagan, and Amos Yadlin. The amount will be awarded for the “revolutionary execution” of these three individuals. The executive committee, which calls itself the “justice-seeking movements of students”, also registers people who would donate their kidney to help increases the reward [Persian].
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Disgusting. We have a bunch of vampires ruling us. i hope they eat out of each other’s flesh in despair, and we see the peace planned in the Middle East work out and the nations of Israel and Palestine living a good life and we see the vampires mourn because they can’t rule when there is no problem. Screw them!
[...] Donate your kidney to fight Israel: [...]
They’re asking people to donate their kidneys for sale in order to fund the assassination of members of foreign governments.
Just when I think the IRI regime can’t go any lower… .
One of the problems with building a regime on hatred of others - aside from the fact that it is innately horrible - is that eventually that irrational hatred grows to the point where it poisons everything else.
You gotta be kidney!!?
[...] not so different, Kamangir: Iranian kidneys vs. Zionist [...]
That is terrible, Archer, really terrible.
Where are selfless fighters for the glory of religion and IRI?
Where are Iranian youth fearlessly going against godless people through thick and thin with nary a thought of rewards or money.
Now, Iranian youth need rewards and acclaim to do what IRI wants them to do!!!
I am disgusted, really disgusted…..that surely is an influence of arrogant others who want Iranians concentrate on healthy, safe living and making money.
Lovely. What next, sell your children to slavery so that the reward to kill the Evil Zionist Pigdogs may increase? Organ dealing is bad enough as it is…
On second thought… Can an Evil Zionist contribute to the Cause? One Jewish kidney, coming up! ;-)
Hi, Passover is coming and I’m really desperate, we didn’t get a supply of fresh Palestinian kids this year. I want to buy 2-3 kidneys for Mazza, but only from 1-2 year old kids. Can you help me?
[...] In Jerusalem: Just when you thought the Iranian regime could not get any lower, they have reached a new low. “The ceremony will focus on designating rewards for the assassination of three Israeli top [...]
Per your comments at my blog, thank you very much. As I said in my post, I tend to trust Carl’s sources. Sometimes, you see things, that you just have trouble believing, and want to see for yourself before passing it on. God Bless you and your family, and all your people back home.
Kamangir: Nice to meet you. :)
I hope donating more than one kidney is not only allowed but encouraged.
Do they have to be human kidneys?
Bi jeegar in linkaro bebin shayad ye khorde oon maghze estemar zadat tekoon bokhoreh.
http://www.youtube.com/user/representativepress
http://ifamericansknew.org/
http://bp1.blogger.com/_GU5TR33tUAQ/R189LsIyIfI/AAAAAAAAALk/Z_XCE-o9cBk/s1600-h/landloss.gif
Translation: Take a look at these links, maybe it will help your self-hating brain think again [not exact translation - slang language].
Na jeegar, tarjome maghze estemar zade mishe colonized brain :))
No beloved one, the exact translation of “Maghze estemar-zade” is “colonized brain”
Because you see this announcement for kidneys but you don’t see the brutal and inhuman behaviour of Israili army in Gaza. you don’t condemn Israili saying “we will make another Holocaust” , you dont condemn the sanction on people who just voted to their own party in an election which didn’t make your lords in New York and Tel Aviv happy. Shame on you.
Kamangir: I do not have any “lord” anywhere.
You may not have any Lord in the common sense but at the end of the day your writings will defenitly favour one party. So go back to all your comments and see how many of them are in favour of opressed ones and how many on favour of opressors.
Kamangir: I do my best in trying to remain impartial. The terms “oppressor” and “oppressed”, unfortunately, have been horribly abused. I’d rather refrain from using the stereotypes.
[i] “you don’t condemn Israili saying “we will make another Holocaust†[/i]
“Mani”, if according to that President of yours there wasn’t a Holocaust in the first place, how can there be another?
Hatred is a bad istrument if you try getting a life; maybe you should “colonize” your brain in order to acquire some logic.
Peace be with you,
Liber
Liber,
Thanks for mentioning this but
Step by step please
If you beleive that he has meant that and you accept him then it is a different story
I havn’t said that commnet. I beleive that there was a holocaust but:
if it was a trajedy why Israil want to repeat it again?
If Jwish people were victim of racism why they are repeating this in Palestine?
and last but not least the whole story about Ahmadi nejad and his “holocaust denial” is a lie and exagerated by the media. He clearly said in Colombia University that I didn’t say there was no holocaust I just said why Palestinians should pay the price and why Israil dosn’t run a referandum so they can choose themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euto95vFgUo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/representativepress
http://ifamericansknew.org/
Where do I sign up? Ala uat akbar!
Mani:
you show to everyone how little you actually know about the history of Zionism (which existed before the Shoa) and the origin of the state of Israel. Too bad for you. Early Zionists wanted to live in peace with their Christian and Muslim neighbours in Palestine, which by the way was not at all devoid of Jews at that time, as that president of yours and likeminded people never stop claiming. Muslim violence against the Jews in Palestine clearly started BEFORE World War II; read the history of Muhammad Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who instigated Palestinian Muslims to slaughter Jews in the Hebron Massacre of 1929, and was an admirer and personal acquaintance of Adolf Hitler. Just one example of many others.
LIBER
I might not be perfect in old history but I am quite good at the present history and I clearly see how Arabs are treated by the Israilis army now. What Hitler was doing with Jews, Zionists (noy Jews) are doing with Arabs now. If you don’t beleive an stupid guy like me check this statistics please. You may say they are not true but let be fair and realistic.
http://ifamericansknew.org/
I am more than keen to see peace between Arabs and Jews, but when even some Jews are against the idea of Zionism and abusing the religion for political pursposes what can I say. I hope the establishment of this state (Israil) haven’t been a device for keeping the engine of war in the region active so the rpice of oil can be kept high and therfore the economy of the West.
See this article http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
Peace
and this map
http://bp1.blogger.com/_GU5TR33tUAQ/R189LsIyIfI/AAAAAAAAALk/Z_XCE-o9cBk/s1600-h/landloss.gif
Mani,
you apparently have neither completely read my contribution nor understood your own.
That’s what you wrote: “I didn’t say there was no holocaust I just said why Palestinians should pay the price “, clearly establishing a link between the Shoa and what you refer to as “Palestinians paying the price”. My answer, which you obviously haven’t understood, rebuts that very idea with well-established historical facts. You apparently haven’t anything else in your repertoire than repetition of the same pseudo-argument, citing random statistics (I am with Winston Churchill on this: “I only believe statistics I have forged myself”), self-pity (”an stupid guy like me”), and the usual preposterous conspiracy theory (”I hope the establishment of this state (Israil) haven’t been a device for keeping the engine of war in the region active so the rpice of oil can be kept high and therfore the economy of the West.”) that Middle-Eastern dictators use all the time to cover up that they can’t solve the problem of their countries DESPITE the enormous revenues from selling oil to “the West”. Where on earth, by the way, have you been taught the basics of economics, as you really seem to believe that a high oil price boosts Western economy…
“You may say they are not true but let be fair and realistic.” … now what sort of logic is that supposed to be? If I don’t believe in the validity of your sources, I am unfair and unrealistic? Do you actually base your claims on any source that is fairly unbiased and able to withstand scholarly criticism? And thereby I obviously don’t mean rubbish like “ifamericansknew.org” or “Youtube”, which you cite as reference for insults against Arash.
I am not going to comment any further stupidity.
And, by the way: I am more than keen to see peace between Arabs and Jews myself; I am not at all a staunch supporter of Israeli politics; I just don’t like people like that president of yours spreading lies to suit his own political agenda and “abusing the religion for political pursposes”; and I don’t like people who parrot these lies without using their brain, yet dare to insult others.
In your own words: “Shame on you”.
Liber
“Where on earth, by the way, have you been taught the basics of economics, as you really seem to believe that a high oil price boosts Western economy…”
This is not my claim deer because I am not an economist but the authors of that article that I gave you the link are . One Canadian and the other Israili economist!!
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
abd this book
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
You don’t need to look at statistcs you just need to refer to your humanitarian beleifs.
And only my prisedent is spreading lies and not yours, Bush, Blair and Olmert. and the regime of Israil is right in killing people.
So let them go on “without shame”.
Mani - If they really care why not go after all of their enemies of the Palestinians?
1. Last year the Lebanese Army almost emptied the Nahr Al-Bared refugee camp, and anyone left was pretty much killed. I wonder how many innocents died in that one? Did they really count?
2. Kuwait kicked out over 400,000 Palestinians, allegedly for supporting Saddam Hussein. That doesn’t seem very nice, does it?
3. Black September - the Jordanian military killed thousands, went door-to-door. Probably could have killed a lot more if their military vehicles weren’t too big.
4. Lebanon - Sabra killings, wasn’t it the Lebanese Phalange that slaughtered a few thousand?
And there are more, I’m sure you’ve heard of them.
And by the way, why are the Palestinians kept in refugee camps anyway? Just why are they born in an Arab country, have children, and die, without being allowed to be citizens? Is that Apartheid?
Rooby
Good that you also add some more fact about the brutality toward Palestinians,
The problem is that I know the world is not so black and white. Obviously politicians seek their own power using the feeling of people but you can at least see which side is more powerful and get support from the US and which side is suffering. I am not saying Arabs are all righ and innocent, even my country ,Iran was a victim of Arab invasions 1400 years ago. I am just saying now that we live in 21th century why Israil can not run a referandum for Palestinians o decide their own future. Why they don’t leave the areas that are called “occupied land” even by Georg W Bush. I know that even Olmert have to deal with very extrimists in his parliment that don’t want to get an inch of occupid land back to Palstinians.
Many innocent people killed from both Jewish and palestinian people more or less. But after 50 years of violence and conflict none of these two groups want to sit and talk about piece. Some refer to the history of 50 years ago , like Liber and close their eyes to the facts of today or tragedies of Sabra and Shatila and many other genocides. The fact that Arab leaders only want to save their chairs is obvious and Iran for whatever reason , either for sympathy, political reason or balance of power with Israil in the region which is supported by the superpower (US) and British etc is among the rare countries who still support Palestinians.
and Liber our discussion won’t go any were as long as we don’t listen to each other
You mentioned a “Shoa ” issue and didn’t give me any refrence. I will go and read more about it. But when I put my argument based on sources that neither me nor my government (Iran) are their producer (the first link about statistics is an American website http://ifamericansknew.org/ and the second and third are articles and books writtent by two economists from Candan and Israil ) you call it random statistics and suggest a non-sense comment by Winston Churchill “I only believe statistics I have forged myselfâ€.
Even if Churchill advicde is your final card, you just need to turn on your TV and see the every day news from GAZA.
http://ifamericansknew.org/
I checked the sources of the above website again and they provide even details of the name of killed Israili and Palestinian children so I won’t call them random. (That is why I said be fair because prejudice does not let us to see any unfamiliar fact)
So what are your statistics?You can provide your own and then we can discuss but please not from Mosad as I also didn’t provide them from Iran intelligent service but an American organization.
Finally I am not Palestinian neither Arab so my support of Palestine would be less biased than you (if you are from Israil) because defenitly you won’t support Palestinians vs. your own government.
Peace upon you
I think we are in agreement they Palestinians should have their own state, and they are victimized by everyone, including their own leaders. Too bad all parties involved can’t come to a reasonable agreement.
But most of the debates on the subject will never blame anyone but Israel, I can only guess why.
Do you live in Iran?
NO
Mani
You said “even my country ,Iran was a victim ..”.
Is it such a bad thing to live in Iran?
????
you asked do you live in Iran? and I said no because I live in Australia and will go back to Iran in 6 months.
Mani - the reason I ask is I’ve heard the internet is very controlled in Iran, can you get to this BLOG from their? Can you read western newspapers?
I am criticizer of this aspect OF Iran regime eventhough peopel in Iran can be more easily brainwashed by the US propoganda machin than the IRI .
The reason is people are tired of economic fail, control and being threaten by the superpowers but they don’t see the whole picture. They don’t accuse the West (I mean US, British, France and Germany mostly) but only their government. They don’t see the bias of these powers against their own country and of course every country has its own problems. Going back to my initial comment, the reason I import all these issues is that Arash Kamangir as a biased criticizer of Iranian regime only portraits one side of the storey so I am trying to also to see the broader picture. Iranian regime despite being seen as a theological or brutal regime has been changed alot during the last three decades and I am sure if these Western pressure was not thretening the country’s stability (via different military threats, sanction, accusations, bias attitute toward its nuclear program, trying to split it from its Arab neighbours etc) there would be more progress in terms of democrataizing the country.
Despite the simplistic view of a brutal theocratic regime there are two parties in Iran: reformists and conservatives , there is parlimant and election and we just need to make more efforts via different cultural, social and economic reforms to improve the situation not to scalate or overshadow the image of the regime by these kinds of videos which I am sure you can find hundreds on them even in US police system.
Military action or change of regime only make the situation worse as is the case in Iraq and Afghanistan. 50 years a go women couldn’t vote even in Western countries so it is only a matter of time.
LOL reformists and conservatives, yah when the theocracy deigns to let the people run for office maybe.
as for women’s suffrage, while the issue is somewhat complex I feel safe in saying that you are ridiculously wrong.
“The first election for the Parliament of the newly-formed Commonwealth of Australia in 1901 was based on the electoral provisions of the six states, so that women who had the vote and the right to stand for Parliament at state level (in South Australia and Western Australia) had the same rights for the 1901 Federal election. In 1902, the Commonwealth Parliament passed its own electoral act that extended these rights to women in all states on the same basis as men.”
“In medieval France and several other European countries, voting for city and town assemblies and meetings was open to the heads of households, regardless of sex. Women’s suffrage was granted by the Corsican Republic of 1755 whose Constitution stipulated a national representative assembly elected by all inhabitants over the age of 25, both women (if unmarried or widowed) and men. ”
the fact that you are hopelessly wrong isn’t much of a shock.
Mani – thanks for the reply, you have really piqued my curiosity, I have some more questions:
1. How do you think reform will come, other then by force, if the press is so suppressed? For example many Americans believe the easiest way for us to free Cuba from its “dictatorship†is to flood it with McDonalds, Starbucks and internet cafes to let the Cuban people taste freedom. How will the young and exploding Iranian population understand what reform means?
2. I don’t understand why so many of the ‘reform’ politicians were disqualified from the recent elections – who or what determines which people can or can not run?
3. Will Iran ever shed its non-secular government?
4. Let me challenge you on the “US propaganda†– we have hundreds, maybe even thousands of news outlets of every kind, liberal, conservative, etc. We might not be a perfect nation, but freedom of press is precious to us and is exercised every day.
Thanks Robby
I didn’t understand what you mean by Mc Donals and Starbuck as freedom. Is that freedom? I rather call it consumerism which is itself responsible for the current disasters such as global warming and many other environmenta lcrisis. You knwo if chinese people want to pursue the same life style as Americans , we would need 6 earth to serve their daily needs.
And I have to remind that Persian is the fourth most blogged language. Iranians are crazy about blogging so the Internet situation is not that bad.
Regarding having a secular regime, why do you think that democracy always comes with secularism. Turkey has a secular government but a traditional society so last time when they removed the Hijab regulation most of women truned to hijab. In Iran the situation is vice versa, A religious regime and to some extent secular nation. It needs to be step by step. You can’t changed the whole nation overnight. That is the problem with Bush policies that think he can export democracy by military action. They may remove the dictators by they can not changed the culture that breed dictatorship. It needs decades and I beleive that Iranians after their revolution has practiced democracy and if these international forces were not making government worry about interference, there would be even more freedom because many of reformists turned to be pro-US and wanted to return the country back to Shah period.
A puppet of US.
Bob,
I am not a historian so my comment was a general reminder of the historical progress of Women’s right in the West. You must know Emily Davison better than me who killed herself uner the horse in 1913 for Women’s rights.
http://www.heretical.com/suffrage/1913tms1.html
Mani - I guess you make a good point; I was lumping free enterprise/Western culture with an open society, I’ll have to think about that a bit more.
I don’t see how a society can be totally free if it is not secular, at least mostly secular. Your example of Turkey is similar to the US, we are a secular government, but most people are Christian (which I am not). I can’t remember the last time I read anything from a Jewish member of the Iranian Parliament, yet the Israeli press will have stories from the Arab Members of Knesset almost daily. Maybe it’s perception; maybe it’s the lack of truly open press.
It would be hard for me to defend your argument about exporting democracy. We can’t and should not do it. That policy is, in fact, anti-democratic.
Please explain my question about who can run for Parliament in Iran. I only read that a lot of ‘reform’ candidates were eliminated, but I don’t know why.
Khali Mam Noon (don’t laugh, my Farsi is very rusty)
Mani the reason secular regimes are more successful is it provides a way to kick out the religious bigots, and is vastly more effective in upholding freedom of religion. You seem to be especially scared of being a “puppet” of the united states. probably due to your islamist training in anti-americanism. how did that “puppetry” workout for japan and korea?
as for women’s suffrage, you seem to be playing a game where truth is only tangentially applicable. you claimed that “the west” has only had women’s voting for 50 years, then quote something from the women’s rights movement from the first world war. me thinks you need to bear down and start understanding your argument in a more clear and factual way, and not in lazy untruths.
Robby
You are the first person who discuss issues patiently and I thank you for that. I didn’t defend exporting democracy because I said “That is the problem with Bush policies since he thinks he can export democracy by military action.” Yes to be totally free it is better to have secular state but it is not the first priority and this is the mistake that many reformists made in Iran. As soon as they came into power via the 20 millions vote that poeple gave to Khatami (the reformist president) some of reformist parlimentary representatives started pro-US and some neo-liberalization policies.
I am sorry if I am not a supporter of US policies , eventhough I love American people but not Bush administration. US didn’t left a good history in Iran regarding their support of the military coup of 1953 which overthowned democratic government of Mossadegh and returened the dictator (Shah) back to Iran. Also their support of Saddam for invading Iran after the Revolution and many other attempts to overthrown the regime.
The reason why US ,despite having a religious nation, is democratic is their several institutions that prevent any despotism. In fact I would say people in US are mor ereligious than Iran. I have seen soem crazy church shows and extreme Christians that I have never seen in the mosques of Iran.
In iran beside president who is elected by people, there is supreme leader who is elected by 12 members of “Guardian council” and is the most powerful political body.
Majles (Parliament)
The Majles, comprises 290 members elected for four-year terms. The Majlis drafts legislation, ratifies international treaties, and approves the national budget. All Majlis candidates and all legislation from the assembly must be approved by the Council of Guardians.
Guardian Council
The Guardian Council is composed of 12 jurists, including six clerics appointed by the Supreme Leader, and six jurists elected by the Majlis from among the Muslim jurists nominated by the Head of the Judicial System. The Council interprets the constitution and may reject bills from parliament deemed incompatible with the constitution or Sharia (Islamic law). These are referred back to parliament for revision. In a controversial exercise of its authority, the Council has drawn upon a narrow interpretation of Iran’s constitution to veto parliamentary candidates.
As of the early 1990s, the Guardian Council vets (approves) candidates for national election in Iran.
The Expediency Council has the authority to mediate disputes between Majles and the Council of Guardians, and serves as an advisory body to the Supreme Leader, making it one of the most powerful governing bodies in the country.
This system is criticized for being like a visious circle and now there are some voices to make the election of leader also a national election. Despite all the critics about this semi-democratic system in Iran, I should remind you of the 2500 years of monarchy system in Iran’s history so the Revolution of 1979 was a smooth transition from such despotic system to a more democratic one. And unfortunately since some reformists blemished the reform idea in the political system of the country via their totally pro-Western approche , they gave enough excuse to “Guardian Council” to eliminate some of the candidates from the list. It is like in US some candidates have communist links or pro-Russian approches. What would your system do to them.
The problem of homogenization is that it neglect the differences acroos the world. Democary can not be institutiona;ized the same way all over the world. Every country has its own socio-cultural and economic differences. Privatization in the West may be a good thing because you also have a good judiciary and watch dog press system that minimizes the corruption. But to neo-liberalize all countries may leed to the corruption and huge economic gap in thord world countries some thing that economic policies of Rafsanjani, a so called reformist figure in Iran, was going to create and that is why low class and poor people suffer most.
Bob,
Ok Ok I am sorry, take the core of discussion and don’t stick to the details I correct my self, not 50 years but 80 or 90 years or whatever Are you happy now? :))
but you can not deny that all this rights have been historically progressed. I said 50 years ago women couldn’t vote and up to here I ment in third world countries and then I said even in Western countries and I should mentioned a longer history so I apologize for any inconveneince that …….blah blah
Take gay rights for instance , Did they have the same rights 50 years ago compare to now? of course not and it makes me laugh when the first questions regarding democracy in Iran is about gay rights. There are lots of many other prorities that should be questioned first.
And I didn’t have enough time to read the whole story about Emily Davison I only rememberd her sucide in an English course that I had 10 years a go so did she killed herself because women didn’t have the right to vote that time or was it for some other reasons?
Thank you for following the discussion
I looked up emily davidson for you. it appears that she did not intend to commit suicide, but was practicing a form of almost-martyrdom. this occasionally happens, people wish to make large impactful statements about their cause and do drastic things for which they end up dying. It would be an interesting thing to write a paper on me thinks.
and yes human rights, and its variant aberrations and heresies is an open and ongoing fight. it could certainly be argued that forward motion is as important as where you are in the journey.
Mani – thanks for the excellent explanation.
So you are saying unless the powers decide to embrace reform it won’t happen, at least not from the top down?
Does your comment about Americans being more religious (which I may not agree) imply that most Iranians would prefer a secular government?
About crazy church shows in the US – free speech is a double-edged sword, but I feel strongly that is imperative in a democracy. What frustrates me about the Arab World and Iran is the lack of free speech in the press. If you want true opposing views you must look to sources elsewhere. There are some, but they are never based in their home country. The beauty of the Internet is I can read the same story from several sources and see the differences.
Your question about what would the US do? We have very few rules about who can run for office, although the President must be US born. A good example is David Duke, who was a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan (a terrible group that has done some pretty bad things) has held a state political office and has run for many others, including president. But just about all Americans understand the KKK, so he didn’t get very far.
But even if he did hold a very powerful legislative position (President is not a legislative position and does not pass laws), we have checks and balances. New laws must be constitutional. For example my state of California passed a law that would eliminate benefits to anyone in this country illegally, but it was struck down by the courts as being unconstitutional. This is what guarantees minority groups, such as homosexuals, they will not get trampled on by the majority.
I agree with you whole-heartedly about different countries need its own socio-cultural and economic systems. By the same token I feel the same way about religions trying to expand into third world countries under the disguise of “feeding the poorâ€.
Happy Now Rouz to you,
Thanks,
Robby
Thanks a lot Robby,
and Happy Easter to you to, they were together this year with one day difference.
Regarding the freedom of Press, I agree that they are not comparable with third world countries at all and that is a part of this system (US) that makes it U.S.
But I am a bit sceptical about the media in general and especially about the hegemony of some over the others. Who runs TV channels and News agencies in U.S. What are their attitutes and whose point of views are reflected more on them. For instance take Israeli/Palestinian conflict as an example. How many of these channels report the news unbiased? I am not giving any opinion here but just want open this as an issue to think.
Cheers
the united states press is biased, but it is freely biased based on its makeup and not on any propaganda dictate. just look at fox news, the old press establishment HATES fox news and how it rose. and the liberals REALLY hate fox news, I mean its hilarious how much hate, they think its satanic.
in places like iran though fox news would be impossible, they’d be arrested and shutdown for not espousing the orthodoxy.
I personally dislike state media. this includes the especially vile ones like iran/egypt/north korea/cuba, but it also includes the BBC and PBS. they are almost always hijacked to exert political control meant to keep the orthodoxy in power. the only exception is PBS, but thats just because almost no1 watches it.
I suppose it is probably impossible to report on any conflict totally unbiased, but we have so many choices it is almost silly. I read recently that most Americans get their news from the Internet, which means they can read anything. And if you read some of the Arabic sites that are translated you will see plenty of Americans in their talk backs and letters.
Last December an Arab watch dog group released a report accusing the New York Times as being biased against the Palestinians. Around the same time a pro-Zionist group released a report accusing the New York Times of biased against Israel. And technically neither report was wrong.
On talk radio the other day an Iranian women called in with exactly the same statement, that American media did not report the truth about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and she went on to quote what was in various sources such as Iranian and Arab papers. She went on for a couple of minutes about what she had read elsewhere and the talk show host asked her “how do you know what they say is right and what the American media says is wrongâ€. Of course she could not answer that question, just as he could not that same question had she posed it to him.
On the other hand the Arab and Iranian world is well over a billion people, maybe even 1.5 billion. The total population if Israeli’s and Palestinians combined is somewhere around 15 million, or about 1 percent. Take a few days and read just about any Arab news source and you will usually see multiple stories about Israel and the Palestinians, just about always negative against the Israelis. Some won’t even mention the Israel but rather the ‘Zionist entity’. Try looking at Al Jazeera, Al Ahram, etc, for a few days, it will amaze you. I’m not one to belief in conspiracies, but it’s almost as if they are afraid people forget. I’m sure you’ll agree the Kurds will never get this much attention.
Let me show you one story that magnifies this. About a year ago an Israeli news station released some balloons in a birthday celebration. In Hebrew the balloons said ‘Happy Birthday’. Some of the balloons drifted over the border into Lebanon , where they were reported as poisonous on many Arab news sources. No proof at all, a pure and false accusation was reported as news. Please read what Fars News Agency reported, it might even make you laugh: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8511120182
It’s also Purim, a Jewish holiday – it is a story based in your country, ancient Persia. Thanks again Mani, I am really enjoying our exchange.
Thanks Bob and Robby,
Well the world of politic is complex as you said. Regarding having opposit views in Iranian press, the two parties (reformist vs. conservatives) can balance each other to some extent but regarding the international politics you have to see the whole picture. Definitly their voice is nothing in the global media regarding the English language audiences. Also people of Iran don’t have access to the whole news not because of the censorship but because of their language limit and definityly those foriegn Farsi-based news agencies such as Radio zamaneh, Radio farda, BBC persian etc never support the state views. Some times it is so terrible that people beleive any shit that those agencies spread just because they don’t have access to all the news. So what the state can do? they close their website but there are still satelite dishes which again are full of bulshits from Farsi programs of monachy supporters, mujahedin and alike.
I am totally agree that Iranian government policies regarding closing those news is wrong because persoanlly some times when I check BBC or Fox News I see how biased they are and this can help me to find the truth!
But I don’t know “some times” despite all the propoganda, you can feel which side is more ignored and havn’t got a chance to reflect its voice. I can’t judge the story of baloons but here in Melbourne Uni, I read how a group of deminers were asking for help since Israel didn’t want to give the map of minig sites of some decades ago which were responsible for the killing of many civilians and children.
Mani, Bob -
I showed the balloon story because I was trying to illustrate an example of a one-sided story, and in this case out right lying. Just this week the BBC had to retract a story about Israel destroying that terrorist’s house in Jerusalem, because it never happened, and they used fake pictures.
I’ve written to a few Arab sources to do a story about these two friends, one in Sderot and one in Gaza (http://www.gaza-sderot.blogspot.com/), but so far haven’t see any. It has been mentioned in quite a few western and Israeli news sources.
I can go on and on for a long time about the Arab press, sorry if I’m boring you guys.
Robby,
I have also seen two documentaries many times , one about the two friends one Arabd and one Israili and at the end the Arab (bad guy) kill herself and the Israeili (the good guy) and another about the girl who came for medical treatment but then her sucide bombing was unsuccesful. Well for some one who just see this movies the message is clear. Israil is a land of prosperity and peace and joy and these stupid, violent Arabs are killing innocent peopel and civilians and ….
It was not a surperise that even here in Australia, which life is by far more quite and people are nice and TV channels are less bias, even in SBS which is my favorit channel in Australian TV, the only documentaries on Tehran were about darks sides of Iran : drugs, prostitutions, control
I havn,t seen for god sake one time they show the beatiful Khazar beaches, Isfahan architecture , Persian cinem industry, people’s hospitality so I can assume that those documentaries are also along such approch.
When I was in Iran, I used to hate Palestinians. Suprperise ha ….especially sucide bombers and I am still secular and hate practicing Islam. But since I came here and read more and talked more .. I came across some facts. The News always show us sucide bombers but they never ask why would they do that, Where these kinds of behaviour happens? What is behind all this mess? then I realized that these usually happens in occupied terriitories and under all those racism, humulation and check points.
I don’t know what they tell you about this conflict, but as far as my discussion with some of you tell me you are not even neutral and have more sympathy with Israel and that worries me a bit. because either I am biased or brainwashed or you have lost your sensitivity toward humanitarian crisis. I mean well last time I was in Italy in a conference exactly before the Israel-Lebenese war and there were news of the two kidnapped Israelei sodiers by Hezbollah and I remember every one was upset and shaking heads and …
Then the war started and all those killings of civilians and children which was unexpectable. I was qurious to know whether that Dutch lady who was so upset about the kidnapped soldiers was also upset about the children in Lebenon. I don’t know. Hope I am wrong.
mani, whining about neutrality is for the unintelligent. I categorically oppose racist terrorist organizations like hamas. I am also not “neutral” towards the nazi’s. if hamas wishes me to be “neutral” then they should act differently.
Bob
you can keep saying this as long as the history goes………………….but the history will judge and that’s why I am qurious to know what they show you there that make you call hamas nazis but Israeili army who don’t hesitate to kill kids and civilians or shot even ambulences angels.
Mani
Neither side should aim for or kill civilians. Unfortunately that is not the reality. I am a Zionist for sure. But I am not so blind as to support everything the Israeli government does, such as leaving land mines behind in Lebanon, boycotting Al Jazeera, and sometimes just using too much force. And I have stated so to Jewish newspapers and Blogs.
But I am also a strong believer taking responsibility. HAMAS has known since the beginning the requirement by Israel (and the so called quartet) for talks - recognition of Israel, denounce violence, honor previous Israel-Palestinian agreements. It’s hard for me to believe that HAMAS could not predict Israel’s response for the rockets. They want to cry about war crimes yet they allow rockets to be fired from civilian centers, and don’t force their military wear uniforms. IMO – they should put the welfare of their own people before their own ideals, but it doesn’t look like that will happen.
I lived in Teheran for about 1.5 years under the Shah (guess that tells you how old I am), left at the end of 1978. As an American it was a pretty good time to be there, at least till November 1978. The polo field in Isfahan is beautiful.
According to my friends that travel back on occasion a lot have things have changed. Of course many streets have different names. In 1978 Tajrish was pretty much the northern part of Teheran, with only a small population living in Darband. I heard a lot of people now live in Darband, and even farther north. BTW - One US dollar was 7 toman.
But you could go for a nice chelo kabob, eh?
Robby,
Interesting story.Ya, now one US dollar is 900 tomans! but chelo kabab is still there, hope things will change.
israeli army tries desperately to avoid civilian death. lets put it this way. if israel were to lob 50 artillery shells into gaza indiscriminately everyday for 5 years with the explicit hope of killing as many people as possible, THEN they would be in hamas’ territory.
Hey Mani,
I have just returned from my vacation and caught up on this, er… “discussion”. I must say the idiocy of your contributions in the meantime did rather surprise me:
“And only my prisedent is spreading lies and not yours, Bush, Blair and Olmert. and the regime of Israil is right in killing people.”
“Finally I am not Palestinian neither Arab so my support of Palestine would be less biased than you (if you are from Israil) because defenitly you won’t support Palestinians vs. your own government.”
That is all you have to say, angry young man?
If that president of yours is clearly spreading lies, everyone else has to likewise?
Everyone who doesn’t share your ignorant and biased weltanschauung must be an American and/or one of those “evil Jooooooos”?
Dream on, and peacefully so!
Khoda hafez,
Liber
Liber
I did not offend any of those peopel who I was duscussing with by terms such as “idiocy ” so it is clear who is an angry young man and I have to say you are very talented in not picking up the sections that you didn’t have any thing to say.
Good bye and enjoy your next vacation.
(Mani, 55) “I did not offend any of those peopel who I was duscussing with”
(Mani, 14) “Bi jeegar in linkaro bebin shayad ye khorde oon maghze estemar zadat tekoon bokhoreh.”
(Mani, 15) “No beloved one, the exact translation of “Maghze estemar-zade†is “colonized brain†Because you see this announcement for kidneys but you don’t see the brutal and inhuman behaviour of Israili army in Gaza. you don’t condemn Israili saying “we will make another Holocaust†, you dont condemn the sanction on people who just voted to their own party in an election which didn’t make your lords in New York and Tel Aviv happy. Shame on you.”
Oops…
The problem is, Mani, that you never engaged in a discussion at all. It was never your aim to engage Arash in an exchange of viewpoints on the topic presented here. Instead of taking on a stance on the perverse practice of trafficking human organs to generate revenue for paying contract killers, and securing that stance by logical arguments, you insult the person who brought these disgusting news to our notice. That is not what we in the West call a discussion. Maybe Arash’s brain is “colonized”, as you were inclined to point out, but at least it works in terms of reason and sanity, and I dare say it works very well. Plus, as demonstrated numerous times, it has a heart to back it up. Your tragedy is, though, that you don’t even understand how manipulated you are and how little humanity is left in your heart. This post was not about the Israeli military in Palestine; this post was not about an evil Jewish-American-British world conspiracy that turns politicians and people into puppets; if you want to engage in a disussion here, please address the practice of a super-rich state that publicly suggests to its citizens that they should sell one of their organs to raise money for hiring a contract killer. That ist the topic, disgusting as it may be. To distract from the original topic in order to discuss other topics that match your ideology better is what I referred to by the word “idiocy”, from which you have taken offense, and the meaning whichof you apparently don’t know. I politely ask you to take a dictionary and check the etymology of that word instead of flooding this forum with lofty displays of your supposedly superior level of information and your oh so pacifist ideas. You dress in sheep’s clothing only to spout hatred. You are a hypocrit. You do what all hypocrits do (and, as I slowly come to believe, Muslim hypocrits most commonly) when they finally grasp that they are lacking arguments: you are offended — after you offended everyone else by apparently assuming that we are stupid and cannot read. It is people like you who prove to those Westerners tired of fruitless “dialogue” that the stereotypes of the Orient might be a bit true after all. Thus, you are digging trenches instead of bridging them. Well done. That president of yours should award you a prize. I only hope they won’t start to sell some other poor an gullible chumps’ body parts to pay for it.
I can assume that when the media that gives you information is % 90 with one side, there is no point to blame you and no wonder that you think I am brainwashed. The problem is what I call “legitimiated brutality”. Donating kidneys for killing some people
is stupid for sure (eventhough it is not “the practice of a super-rich state that publicly suggests to its citizens that they should sell one of their organs to raise money for hiring a contract killer “but some extrimist students!) but what I am trying to,eventhough its pointless since all your life you have heard the story that your politicians have told you, either repulicnas or democrats, Fox news or CNN or whatever, to see a different picture.
It is brutal to kill some one or send sucide bombers to explode themselves but it is also brutal, very brutal to invade other countries and create a mess in other countries leading to a chain of violence which kills innocent people every day in the name of democracy or support very biasly one state over the other by giving them billions of aids and letting them to continue building illegal settlements, disconnecting gas, electricity, food and every thing in one area and letting its residents to die
just because they did not satisfy you in their election.These all turn back to decisions of your politicians and they can not wash their hands of the blood.
This is what I call “silence tyrrany” and “legitimated brutality”. No one feel the ugly side of such wars and thousands of people who are burned, loose their hands and heads in the daily explosions in Bghdad or Basra or suffer inGaza.
But as soon as one sucide bomber kill himself in Tel Aviv all the cameras turn to that event to show how stupid are these Palestinians and how violent they are? withouth questioning why they would do that for.
My discussion with you goes no where so you don’t have to reply and I don’t expect you to even think in any other way as long as you are sitting on your coach and watching your TV , reading your newspaper and enjoying your wine.So please do not reply.
“I can assume that when the media that gives you information is % 90 with one side, there is no point to blame you and no wonder that you think I am brainwashed. (…) but what I am trying to,eventhough its pointless since all your life you have heard the story that your politicians have told you, either repulicnas or democrats, Fox news or CNN or whatever, to see a different picture.” (Mani, #57)
“My discussion with you goes no where so you don’t have to reply and I don’t expect you to even think in any other way as long as you are sitting on your coach and watching your TV , reading your newspaper and enjoying your wine.So please do not reply.” (Mani, #57)
Mani, sorry for refusing your request, at least partially; I will not comment further on the self-satisfied, rambling speech you displayed in this forum. I will only point out two things — however repetitive that may be, but you seem more inclined to feel offended than to carefully read other people’s posts:
1. We never had a discussion here, at least not as defined by “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 3rd edition” (”discussion: 1. consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation 2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition”); and 2.: Just to prevent you from falling back into the fallacies of your “Jewish-American-British conspiracy against the Islamic world”-theories, as beautifully displayed above: Although my dictionary reads “American Heritage” on its cover, I am not an American. Nor am I Jewish. Nor am I British. I only dare calling myself a human being that tries to use its own mind in forming an opinion. I don’t give a *** what American Democrats and Republicans say unless they are intelligent and decent persons (nothing I can say of you after this short acquaintance). I don’t give a *** what they say on CNN or whatever TV channel you believe I waste my time with unless it presents facts that are verifiable by cross-checking with other sources (a basic scholarly procedure you seem unfamiliar with) and are used as basis for a good, i.e. logically consistent argument. Everything you can put against me are wild and insulting assumptions on your part because you allege that I am (and, for that matter, everyone else in this forum is) ignorant and/or lying against better judgement.
Unlike yourself in Iran, I had access to many books and newspapers from all over the world during the last twenty or so years, and never restricted by state censorship or stupid noisy nationalism — rest assured that I read a whole lot of them. I also talked to many people from all over the world, including Israel, Palestine, and Iran. Unlike yourself in the latter country, I grew up in an intellectually stimulating environment (and I thank God for that) in which facts-based criticism was encouraged — in EVERY direction! I could freely discuss politics with my professors and fellow students WITHOUT being afraid of being denounced and/or beaten up by self-proclaimed vice squads. And, Mani, I probably have more books on the Middle East and Persian civilization on my shelves than you ever laid an eye upon.
You may reply to this post, if you feel inclined to. I will certainly not infringe upon your right to do so. I would never say “talk to the hand, because I won’t listen” — that’s for sissies who can’t stand a real argument.
But maybe you will reply to my lines; in that case, I am curious what YOU are doing (except enjoying wine, maybe…) besides that: “sitting on your coach (couch?) and watching your TV , reading your newspaper and enjoying your wine.”
*Well, wrong guess. I am living in Melbourne and I also have access to many books, channels, my Israeli friend Ilan who himself calls Israeili politicians stupid, ……
*and for more information I am secular and also drink wine on my (couch, sorry for misspelling) so don’t worry about it. One fact is that all these comments should not be necessarily related to the topic. Because what Arash puts here is not in itself self-suficient. it is only a part of a news so it is in fact de-contextualized so the first person who reads it will say something and the next (either agree or not ) wiol say some thing else and this raise different issues so there is nothing wrong with importing different issues related to this topic because they are linked together.
* I don’t know why you assume that I am a fond of those stupid students who invited people for donating kidneys and my comment on Arash was only an old argument between two Iranians since he always narrate the story from one side (nothing wrong with this and I am free to comment on his propaganda and make a balance. fair enough).
*
* I don’t beleive that all posts of this weblog are a proper ground for discussing something because they are piched up information, like a clip from youtube or an un-official news from some extreme students or a cartoon and most times biased so how do you expect me to comment on his posts ?
I also have to remind that because of both because of the blockage of this weblog in Iran and language barriers it has mostly non-Iranian visitors so there is not much Iranian to defend or say a different things while the Western media has enough propaganda against Iran and its policies until you disagree and tell me no, they are fair but at least those documentaries about Iran that I have seen in Australian SBS channel which is still the best and less biased one, telling me something else.
*any way I like discusing opposit views with people but there is something that I don’t like in these blog discussions and that is when you disagree with some one and you provide some facts or documents or whatever it is not like , ok you convinced me in this part because the two sides of discussiob just try to destruct each other views or disagree even though they make sense.
lets put it this way,
read this
“Self defence or brutal occupation?”
if I have had told you this in our discussion yesterday you would defenitly lol at me and saw me as a stupid brained washed guy in favor of Arabs or Muslims of whatever S****.
But this is the title of an article in yesterday -Monday March 31- 2008-The Age newspaper which is the most famous one in Australia and every one read it so it is not only my favourit or a marxist or leftist publication ..
It is written by Peter Slezak (lecturere in philosophy at the University of NSW and Antony Loewenstein the author of book “My Israel Question” and if you read it is about what I just told you yesterday but only because they came out of my mouth you woukld never accept them because in blog discussions you should never accept any diiferent opinion, you just have to destroy the other person.
Blogs.theage.au/yoursay
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/slezak-and-loewenstein/2008/03/30/1206850709826.html
(Mani, #59) “*and for more information I am secular and also drink wine”
… good for you. You would miss so much…
(Mani, ‘59) “* I don’t know why you assume that I am a fond of those stupid students who invited people for donating kidneys”
… because you acted as if you were.
(Mani, #60) “* I don’t beleive that all posts of this weblog are a proper ground for discussing something because they are piched up information, like a clip from youtube or an un-official news from some extreme students or a cartoon and most times biased so how do you expect me to comment on his posts ?”
… umm … not by constantly citing clips from youtube, un-official news from some extreme state-run Iranian or anti-American websites, or … whatever… and most time biased… as you do.
(Mani, #59) “what Arash puts here is not in itself self-suficient”
…maybe. But I am still waiting for the proof that it is wrong, and his brain … how did you put it?… ‘colonized’”.
(Mani, #59) “so there is nothing wrong with importing different issues related to this topic because they are linked together.”
Right. In some way maybe. As the mustard seed is linked to the Tsunami.
(Mani, #60) “I also have to remind that because of both because of the blockage of this weblog in Iran and language barriers it has mostly non-Iranian visitors so there is not much Iranian to defend or say a different things while the Western media has enough propaganda against Iran and its policies until you disagree and tell me no, they are fair but at least those documentaries about Iran that I have seen in Australian SBS channel which is still the best and less biased one, telling me something else”
… you mean: because they disagree the least with your own weltanschauung, which apparently is your notion of “fair”; not because they are “fair” and “unbiased” in my understanding of the word. By the way: it’s not because of too few Iranians having the chance to critically comment on Arash’s weblog — it’s because there are, at least on the topic in question, very few points to disagree with him from the perspective of a self-thinking human individual. There would be less “propaganda against Iran”, as you call it, if there would be less insane politics coming from said country.
(Mani, #60) *any way I like discusing opposit views with people but there is something that I don’t like in these blog discussions and that is when you disagree with some one and you provide some facts or documents or whatever”…
oh, have you?
… “it is not like , ok you convinced me in this part because the two sides of discussiob just try to destruct each other views or disagree even though they make sense.”
oh, has it? I must have missed it…
I wonder whether you will ever understand that it’s not your questionable (and in my opinion: outright stupid) convictions that make you a laughing stock here, but rather your self-righteous and insulting behaviour in this forum.
Keep going, would be better to spend your time reading the article in The Age Newspaper
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/slezak-and-loewenstein/2008/03/30/1206850709826.html
rather than picking up my comments and putting ironic childish comments for each and probabely you call this discussion.
So go and enjoy, along other self-satisfied intellectual people in this forum, reading horrible news from an extreme brutal nasty country which its regime should be overthrown by your nice, democratic US as soon as possible so we can return to the Shah period when there was no brutality, poverty and dependency in our country.
Mani,
You can post as many links as you wish; as long as you don’t display any decency to the host of this forum (that would include an apology for your insulting language right at the beginning) nor any ability to really discuss the issues Arash has brought up (e.g. not diverting to random other issues and not lashing about verbally if others don’t follow suit), I won’t read any.
And yes, I will go on commenting upon your comments as long as you give the impression that you suffer from dyslexia:
“So go and enjoy, along other self-satisfied intellectual people in this forum, reading horrible news from an extreme brutal nasty country which its regime should be overthrown by your nice, democratic US”
In case you still haven’t got the message: I am not an American. By the way, I am also not that president of yours, and therefore I do not take pleasure from anything that involves violence: I have no dreams of wiping nations and/or governments from the map.
“… so we can return to the Shah period when there was no brutality, poverty and dependency in our country.”
Well… What about trying anything that deserves the name “democracy” instead?
Kamangir: Dear Liber, I do appreciate your concern. Mani did start with an offensive tone and some of his remarks do not quite comply with what my understanding of constructive commenting is. Nevertheless, the sole fact that we are having a conversation is an achievement. I do appreciate all your contributions here. :)
Liber,
Now you are the representative of the host. I think Arash is mature enough and aware of the discussions and if he likes to comment, no one will stop him .
I also got what you mean by “discussion” now. Whatever is posted here or you beleive that is the right thing, I should agree with it otherwise I am a hypocrit or I am suffering from dyslexia.
As long as I know the basic pre-conditions for discussion needs the two sides to listen to each other. At the begining of this discussion you mentioned a “Shoa” issue and then I asked you for some refrences but you didn’t provide any. Now I am providing an article written by a famous Israeili author and you refuse to read it so why you are wasting your time and mine. Go enjoy yourself.
and if that president of mine “take pleasure from anything that involves violence or dreams of wiping nations and/or governments from the map” (which in fact he never used such terms and this is again another trick of your media) your favorit presedents including Bush and Olmert are practically taking pleasure from anything that involves violence (in Iraq and Qaza ) and are actually in practice not in words are trying to wipe nations off the map and if by “democracy” you mean the American style democracy in Iraq or Afghanistan, I am glad that we will never have such types of democracy in my country.
(Mani, #65) “I also got what you mean by “discussion†now. Whatever is posted here or you beleive that is the right thing, I should agree with it otherwise I am a hypocrit or I am suffering from dyslexia.”
Sorry Mani, you got it all wrong again. I begin to fear that you might flunk the class …
(Mani, #66) “(…) your favorit presedents including Bush and Olmert (…)”
Mani, you start being a bore… Is your idea of the world really so simplistic and limited that you believe whoever doesn’t like that president of yours must be either a) an American, b) a Jew, c) a Brit, d) a fan of G. W. Bush, e) a fan of Olmert, f) a fan of Blair, if not g) all that together? Is it too much for you to imagine that I detest that president of yours because of his blatant lies, his brazen hostility towards “the West”, his anti-judaism revelling in genocidal fantasies, and his dictatorial style of government, based on the use of violence and intimidation — and that I also don’t have the least sympathies for G. W. Bush? Do I have to add everytime I say I detest that president of yours (plus those corrupt bigots that help him oppress the people, and those brainwashed morons that help spreading his lies), that I also detest other politicians, just to assuage the anger of those who, maybe even against better judgement, defend his repugnant behaviour in order to soothe their hurt nationalists souls? Doesn’t the thought ever cross your mind that you should rather actively work for a change in the image of your beloved fatherland than calling all those stupid who, with good reasons, think negatively about its regime? Do you really believe you are doing your country a favour if you defend a politician who is a disgrace to Persian civilization and international diplomacy? Just because he is Iranian? Shouldn’t you, as an intelligent man, know better?
And yes, I certainly prefer American style democracy over all the dictatorial systems in the Middle East, especially that “democracy” (please note my use of quotation marks) in Iran. And I am at a loss for answers to the question how anyone can be so misguided and seriously prefer the latter.
Regarding the Shoa (I did take notice of the quotation marks): I don’t think I need to cite reference for something almost the entire civilized world agrees upon as an historical fact; put some effort into your education an go to the libraries in Melbourne, you will find hundreds of scholarly books on that topic … oh, I forgot: 90% of the media is biased against Iran, so probably 90% of historians are biased as well. You know, on second thought: Maybe you shouldn’t go to a library — it might shake your beliefs. And conspiracy theories are very convenient for explaining the world…
Arash-jân,
our friend Mani is right in one point, though: I have, in a high-handed way, made myself “the representative of the host”. That is certainly a transgression of my competence. I apologize and promise to refrain from any similar actions in the future.
Best,
Liber
Kamangir: Liber Jan (and I was totally flattered by your very precise spelling of “Jan” :) ), the sole fact that we are trying to have a civilized conversation is fascinating. I do thank you, and everyone else, for elaborating more on the topics. Chakerim :) (don’t tell me you don’t know what “Chakeirm” means! :) )
Arash-jân,
besjâr mehrbân hasti. Mota’assefâne, zabân-e Fârsi choob nemifahmam. Een zabân dar dâneshgâhe-man jâd gerefte-am, wali tâ emrooz zijâd farâmoosh karde-am. Ghâlaban eshtebâhi mikonam. Een kheyli heyf ast, ammâ… een tour-ast digar.
Marhamat-e to zijâd!
Liber
Kamangir: Liber Jan, that is just amazing! Good job man! :)
Well , I know better than you that the political system is not perfect in Iran. State uses intimidation since it fears that the country may experience another revolution and aslo it fears de-stabalization by foriegn powers. As Sadegh Ziba Kalam , a political scholar mentioned in one of his interviews with a foriegn reporter we don’t like Ahmadi Nejad but if Americans wanted to invade the country and create the mess as they did in Iraq I am the first person who will support Ahmadi Nejad. This country with 2500 experienicing monarchy system and violence and invasions by different treats from Alexander to Arabs to Mongols to Iraq and now US, need to find its democracy by its own. If you beleive in democracy you should also beleive in the Revolution of 1979 because that was what most people wanted on that time as most of them wanted during Khatami.
I am not personally a fond of Ahmadi Nejad because this so called “social security” policy by police squads its clearly one of contraversies in what he said before his election. But when I see the Western medias is only using these news as a pre-text for projecting Iran as a horrible country which its regime should be overthrown by Mr.Bush atomic submarines and navies and military actions or economic sanctions which only affect poor people, I have to decide between these two and defenitly I prefer having a so called dictator but loyal to the country than those freaks sitting on their chair and making decisions about the future of the region, oil wells and markets.
I have to decide between Palestinians and Isreleis. you may decide to support one over the other. Nothing wrong with that. This is not to say what Palestinians are doing are all right and what Israelis are doing are all wrong but every one can read, think and finally decide eventhough there is no masternarrative if you beleive in Post-modern thoughts.
And I couldn’t understand the relation between Shoah (In fact you better use the popular term holocaust) and occupation of some parts of Palestinian lands.
Mani,
you bring up a lot of topics here. Let me comment on them one by one.
You wrote: “State uses intimidation since it fears that the country may experience another revolution and aslo it fears de-stabalization by foriegn powers.” Isn’t it rather that the members of the present day Iranian regime fear losing their personal power? Do you really believe that the US, besides the apparent disaster in al-Iraq, can afford another war in the Middle East? Can’t you see that it is mostly sabre-rattling of a gang of political desperados who will no longer be in office in one year (because, unlike the Iranian system, American style democracy allows “regime change” from within)? And I am sure the Iranian regime profits enormously from that alleged threat. The Ahmadi-nejad regime uses exactly the same mechanism as the Bush administration does: the message goes “who is against us is against Iran/America”.
“But when I see the Western medias is only using these news as a pre-text for projecting Iran as a horrible country which its regime should be overthrown by Mr.Bush atomic submarines and navies and military actions or economic sanctions which only affect poor people (…)”
I am at a loss about your definition of “Western media”. You seem to fall back into the fallacies of those conspiracy theories that assume the orchestration of public opinion by state-dependent media. I am currently residing in Germany. Unlike Iran, there is no censorship here, and I can assure you that most newspapers I read and most TV channels I receive have a very unbiased attitude towards the aggressive tone of the Bush administration against Iran, in fact most people I meet are disgusted by that sabre-rattling from Washington — as much as most of them are disgusted by the hateful rants of Ahmadi-nejad, his appalling anti-judaism, his open hostility towards everything Western civilization stands for, his unabashed deception of the international community, and his utter lack of respect for all standards of international diplomacy. He is not one little bit better than Bush. I think it is pretty clear that the US administration tries to divert from political failures by stirring up sentiments against the Iranian regime — but does that mean that all points of criticism are necessarily wrong? Is your criticism of the aggressive American foreign policy wrong, because in criticising you follow your regime? No. What is wrong, in my humble opinion, is your political awareness, i.e. that you apparently defend your regime against criticism of any sort because in some points you share the same set of beliefs. Let me put it differently: A friend of mine, US-American, was having an argument with one of his relatives about support for the Bush administration’s foreign politics. That relative said: “As an American patriot, I will never criticise the US-government in times of war, because I love my country.” My friend responded: “As an American patriot, I will continue to criticise the US-government in times of war, PRECISELY BECAUSE I love my country.” My friend knows the difference between patriotism, which is indeed a noble sentiment and at the basis of many accomplishments beneficial to a greater group of people, and nationalism, which is the attitude of rebuffing criticism of anything connected to one’s country (”because they are kin”), and, if you allow me to be frank, outright stupid. In short: patriotism is working for the betterment of your own society, whereas nationalism, as nothing more than refined tribalism, means stagnation and ultimately leads to decline because you miss the opportunities for adjustment (of which criticism is the very first step). It’s like software that is never updated because its creators believe it is already perfect and don’t listen to the user’s problems. So, if the entire Iranian people is held hostage by its regime which abuses the noble sentiments of the populace to stay in power, decide for yourself whether you like to be a patriot or a nationalist.
“I have to decide between Palestinians and Isreleis.”
I know that that’s what you are told by your government, but in my opinion, you are in great error to believe this. You can take sides on particular actions of one of the opposing parties, but to fundamentally “decide between Palestinians and Israelis” leads indeed to saying “what Palestinians are doing are all right and what Israelis are doing are all wrong”.
“This country with 2500 experienicing monarchy system and violence and invasions by different treats from Alexander to Arabs to Mongols to Iraq and now US, need to find its democracy by its own.”
I absolutely agree with you. Iranians must find their own kind of democracy. That doesn’t mean, of course, that the welâjat-e faqih is democratic in nature. And I also know that the numerous occupations of Iran during the last centuries have caused a national trauma (although many Iranians tend to forget that the cited 2500 years of occupation were also 2500 years of Persian imperialism and expansionism). Overthrowing the freely elected Mossadegh government with the help of the CIA was without any doubt an outrageous act of political villainy. And, on principle, revolutions against a despotic system have my sympathy — as long as they don’t put in power just another despotic system. You know better than I that the Iranian revolution of 1979 was not a purely Islamic one from the outset, and that, like most other great revolutions of the last 300 years, it started killing its own fighters by the thousands pretty soon after its final establishment. As an ardent admirer of Persian civilization, I find in heart-wrenching how the present regime isolates the Iranian people and does great damage to its reputation for the sake of personal power.
“And I couldn’t understand the relation between Shoah (In fact you better use the popular term holocaust) and occupation of some parts of Palestinian lands.”
Well Mani, I couldn’t understand that relation either when you yourself brought it up. Historically, the roots of the violence between Muslim Arabs and Jewish settlers go deeper than the Shoa. The latter was “only” the trigger for the determination of many Jews that they will never again suffer violence against them. If it is used as a mantra for “legitimizing” acts of oppression against the Palestinian populace, I do condemn it, as much as I condemn any use of religion or history to “legitimize” actions detestable from a humane point of view. And, Mani: Even if the term ‘Holocaust’ is more popular, I will not use it, because, in my humble opinion, it is wrong to use it. Holocaust signifies an ancient ritual practice in which an entire sacrifical animal is burnt (”kausis” in Greek means the act of burning something) as a whole (Greek “holos”) instead of eating the meat and only burning the bones and the fat as an offering to the gods. I certainly do not think of the murder of several million Jews as a sacrifice to the gods, and many Jews I know find this term offensive — for understandable reasons. They, and I, prefer the term ‘Shoa’, which is Hebrew and means destruction or “grand catastrophe”.
By the way, just in case that idea crossed your mind: I do not take any pleasure from trashing an opposing disputant. So don’t believe our verbal skirmish was a lot of fun for me. Do believe instead that I try to follow the famous quote attributed to one of my intellectual heroes (which again doesn’t imply that I do not criticise his person), the French philosopher Voltaire: “I detest what you write, but I will give my life for your right to write it.”
And, lastly, I do not “believe in Post-modern thoughts”, although I certainly try to question every master narrative before I make up my opinion; I believe in the power of reason that is backed up by a human heart.
Thanks Liber,
I think this was the first real discussion and as I said if we could discuss issues face to face we didn’t have to go through all those ironic comments or blaming each other or having many mis-understandings and beleive me, when you are opposing Iran’s international policy it is natural for me to assume that you are agree with the other side of the conflict (but you are not as you said).
About nationalism or patriotism you are right. I have to criticize my government regardless of the situation of war or peace but also consider the scope of power and danger that threatening each country. Iranian military power is nothing compared to US and add to this the multi-ethnic society of Iran which opposit to US, which is a melting pot, needs a lot of time and thoughts to understand how to deal with minorities.But we see both British and Americans are scalating the ethnic conflict by supporting terrorist groups such as Maleki in Baluchestan or P.K.K or running Azeri language radios.
and how can I trust American international policy when every wehre they go there is some sinister plans behind. I have a Serbian friend here and was very upset after Kozovo’s independent and angry about US support for it. She mentioned that this is not because US take care about one group or peace but because Kozovo’s has a perfect geopolitical location in Europe.
I also should add that most of the time the fact is not that media is not telling the truth but is not telling the whole truth. About those documentaries which I mentioned of course a documentary can not just make something up but when I see all those three-four documentaries that I have seen on Iran here in Australia and they only address issues such as Drugs, prostitution, Poverty, State Violence etc , I can’t call it unbiased materials because eventhough they are showing the truth, there are also a lot of other good things that they simply ignore or hesitate to show.
Similar to this weblog. It is not to say Arash is telling lies or exaggerates issues but he is only picking up the dark side of Iran and shows it to people who have no idea about Iran. It is good to criticize negative aspects but not to fall in a trap. How many of audiences have a good knowledge about Iran like you. Not much I guess.
And I have to conclude if Americans really care about democracy in the Middle East they have to stop their threats and bullying because this behaviour only gives more excuse to the extrimists to stifle other voices in Iran and reformists and I am sure if you deeply look at the process that this country went through during the last three decades from a fundamnetal teologic regime at the begining of the Revolution to the economic reforms and the election of Khatami and even this guy Ahmadi Nejad, who is not as evil as West is projecting, you can see some signs of progress and at the end of the day democracy needs to be from the grass roots. When poeple do not aknowledge each other rights, minorities, women and youths what we expect from the state but of course state should be the pioneer in these matters and this not to be done step by step not by military action or change of regime. it should be started from inside by reforming this so called brutal regime. I can assure you if Americans were facing the danger of Iran’s today like Soviets they wouldn’t let any voice such as communists to be heard.
I am very skeptical about US policies for democratization of the Middle East. Have you ever hear that they ask Saudi Arabia for running a referandum for having parliemnt and presidency? Also if Ahmadi Nejad is their last card for opressing Iran, why they did not show any signs of reconcilation of the relations during the 8 years of Khatami, the nice and reformist president but only calling Iran, axis of evil. and going back to the “bias” issue if this weblog really wants to challenge the sociopolitical issues of Iran why it never criticizes any of US or its allies policies . May be because this weblog is not made for such purpose but this is not a reasonable justification I would say.
Cheers