Video of the Day: Outrageous Police Violence in Iran
Posted by KamangirMar 9
[youtube]nCOlv-8nmZk[/youtube]
The boy is arrested for having long hair and is beaten by the Police. They then set his hair on fire, in order to humiliate him. Do spread the video (direct link to video).
Update: Some people claim that this video is fake. These people, however, do not manage to provide acceptable argument for their claim.
[...] Well let me add this to the list (from Kamangir The Archer); [...]
that was painfull
If the police are going on some hair cutting missions, then I suggest they buy some shears. Those were the most ineffective barbers I’ve ever seen.
Seriously, I jest only because I don’t know what else to do. Videos like that make me throw up my hands at the absurdity of it all.
Come on Arash, this is such an obvious and poorly staged video. Anyone can make this at their homes. Look how the officers are laughing. No doubt it is done by either Rajavi guys or Reza Pahlavi’s. I thought you were smarter.
Kamangir: I remind you that over 400 Iranians have given positive vote to this video in Balatarin, a website which is not affiliated with any of these groups.
Some people can’t believe what IRI doing to young people! not to mention Rajavi’s if ever become in power would be better than these.
these people yet to know what are the values!!
in the previous comment I wanted to say, if Rajavi’s ever become in power they wouldn’t be any better than IRI, I meant! perhaps even worse!
“Come on Arash, this is such an obvious and poorly staged video. Anyone can make this at their homes. Look how the officers are laughing.”
While I have no way of authenticating the video (I am not an expert on Iranian police uniforms or offices), nothing jumped out as “obvious” and “poorly staged” the guy seems to be trying to stay cool and be cooperative at first but I would not put that down to it being staged. Saying something is “obvious” does not make it so beyond your own perception. As for officers laughing, thugs always laugh when they are bullying someone. How can someone not know that?
Looks real to me…but its rare to see videos from inside the police station itself, which is a surprise.
At the same time, what’s being done isn’t.
I tend to agree with “Ehsan” – the police could be prosecuted if that guy took them to court and showed the video as an evidence.
No police officer inside Iran would be prepared to expose his face in front of a camera in the manner which is shown on this video.
The system has probably lots of flaws but we must be fair in judging it correctly otherwise we would not be any better than those whom we criticise.
Kamangir: Hamind Jan, it is suggested that the event is being taken on video, because it is part of the procedure. Some of the videos, it is suggested, are aired on the national television.
John Simpson, BBC reporter:
“And when, back in 2001, my colleagues and I tried to film the public demonstrations in support of the newly re-elected President Khatami, we were attacked and arrested. One of the special policemen who assaulted us tried to poke my eye out with his finger.
In which other country would foreign television crews be beaten up for filming the celebrations when a new president has been elected?”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7288290.stm
And somehow Mr. John Simpson manages to call Iran a pseudo-democracy better than the rest of the countries in the ME????
Why compare Iran to other ME/ Arab countries? Why not do a comparative analysis of Iran’s social/economic freedom and liberties under the previous regime?
Arash jan,
I’ve thought about this incident a lot and I don’t really think this video is a genuine one – you see, I know that things in Iran are a bit out of order but these police guys would be seriously in trouble if the boy took them to court.
The police procedure for this type of arrest would only involve verbal warnings – I have seen this happen many times in Iran and I can testify to that.
As I said in my previous post, I would really hate to ill-judge my enemies just because I am judging my enemies – I have personally spoken a lot to the Ershad-police on a number of occasions so I think I know a bit more than those who live outside Iran and use secondhand info ( I don’t mean just you btw).
Kamangir:
A quick look at the many pictures published by the news agencies shows that no one presses charges against the police even when harsher abuse has happened. I invite you to take a look at some of the pictures and videos published here and elsewhere.
No, we have seen pictures of Police beating up people right at the doorsteps of their houses.
My judgment is based on the opinion of the many people who have watched the video and have found the argument that is real valid.
It is sad and I hope Shahroodi will arrest these two officers soon as he did for the Police Chief last week. But have you ever heard of “Tranquility Bay” in Jamaica. It is a camp for Juveniles of US (in surface). But in reality it was a nasty organization for programming youths taken from their parents and the owner of this big organization was one of the Republican supporters so the court did not prosecute his case. They were torturing juvemiles and even there were some rape cases and sexual assaults over them. Go and google it Jeegar! :))
See this link for further information of Tranquility Bay
http://www.thewest.com.au/tvguide-popup.aspx?EventID=21032879
and this : No More Nightmares at Tranquility Bay?
http://www.alternet.org/story/31000/
It is called WWASPS and the person behind it is Ken Kay. He’s the president of the tightly knit group of Utah men who run these outposts with their families, under the umbrella company World-Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS)
have to search whether he is Zionist or not :)))
Kamangir: I just cannot find the relationship between your comment and the post.
This is a different case in the sense that this guy did not resist being arrested – plus the police might be a bit rough on people in here but they are not that daft to release a video of torturing their detainee for millions of viewers! Even the biggest idiots cruel people in the world wouldn’t do that.
Anyone who could offer me a lead as regards which police station this took place, I would be prepared to follow it up, seriously.
Kamangir: There does exist footage of the Police abusing a person on the streets of Tehran. As of following up on the issue, do keep me posted please.
ok. as i seen this video and i know that this video is true.
1st because when i went to Iran this summer and last summer i saw stuff happening to young people or students.(Teenager)
getting dragged in buses and taken away because there hair was long or the top button of the shirt was open.
girls getting taken away because they had a bit of make up on.
and 2ndly in the time being that i was in Iran i got slapped and kicked. because they thought to them selves that i sed Beseme Allah.
(as a joke to them)because they were Basiji,
and then when they found out i was A British they sed sorry and he kissed my face.
and then sed we only stopped u had a cigarette in your hand. 1st because i sed besme allah and then 2nd they sed its because i had a cigarrette in my hand (changed there word)
all this video’s that are being shown are true. i even seen them happening in real life.
all im saying is that teenagers want to have fun as well they cant just sit there as all day and study. they need a little bit of fun at the end of the week.
but the police in Iran doesn’t let let that happen.
all the people in iran want is some freedom but they cant get it.
well that my point of view, i respect others.
Peace
oh and just to let people in here know.
even if people report this or sue them is no point because i did the same thing and nothing happend . so if u wano go for it. be my guest coz at the end of the day in my country police comes 1st and they anything they like and no one cant do anything about it. u dont belive me .
go to iran.
Really you can’t make any relation. So I have to say you are either very smart or very stupid (sorry to say this). You are smart because you don’t want to open your eyes to the dark side of the West and were your lords are located.
You are stupid because I am saying that:
this is happening even at the heart of so called democracy of the world (US)but wrapped in other names. You can’t just link between the fact that in Iran , police is supposed to correct in-appropriate behaviour of youths such as having long hairs or drinking or … (this is not to say I am supporting this view) in an overt way
and in US also there are these private organization which in a covert way try to punish juveniles who are considered as having inaaporpaite behaviour?
The difference : in Iran parents don’t pay for such organizations but in US they pay. In Iran the government is not smart enough to do this in secret but in US every thing is wrapped in a beautiful cover. Why you didn’t make any comment on the veto of anti-torture law by Bush?
I do not agree with Arash about the police in Iran doing what he says – I have been in Iran for a long time and every day I see how the police handles these cases – if no one challenges the police when they are to be arrested then the police will only give them a verbal warning and gets them to sign a paper to promise that they abide by the law regarding their appearance – obviously there are always an exception to the rules everywhere in the world, I am just talking in general here.
Kamangir: Such an “exception” should indeed be followed by a trial. I am not sure if that’s exactly the procedure in Iran, though.
Mani-
I’d like to remind you that the article seems to be about issues facing the youth in Iran who don’t want to conform to the rules of the IRI and how they are treated in one particular case by the law enforcement there. This isn’t about the laws in the States…there’s plenty of crap that happens here, and guess what? Nobody’s happy about it. But we’re in a different league, we can actually fight to protect ourselves if we have the resources to do it…while in Iran that boy will mostly not be allowed to fight even if he HAS the resources…
Similar situations, different outcomes.
Again, what you linked to is shocking but perhaps you should create an article and go into detail about those issues in America…because it seems pointless to try and say that we both have problems. Yes, we do, but our problems are on a different playing field.
–
Hamid-
I’ve seen firsthand the way they treat the youth. I’ve had friends who are clearly American-Iranians and innocent of crimes (they weren’t dressed as revealing as some girls were at that time) arrested, taken to jail, held without their cellphones or access to their family, their pictures were taken, they were verbally abused and accosted,. I’ve also seen video and pictures of the way they’ve assaulted girls and boys and experienced MYSELF being chased with a gun for the simplest of behaviors (that are not allowed there)…
You have to look at it from a wider perspective. If the video is fake, it doesn’t matter, these events still happen.
Beja,
My comments were based on my own experiences in Iran. If others have had bad treatments then that is just too sad.
Yes, Arash, the justice system can be very biased and inefficient at times and I hope that one day we all as Iranians will be able to change all that. Although, it all looks very unlikely as things stand atm.
Arash,
A friend of mine also called Arash, put the same clip on you tube but with Ahmadi-nejad’s voice in the background.
http://azarmehr.blogspot.com/2008/03/life-in-islamic-republic-again.html
From his interview on state TV before he became the president.
By the way scum hoder says this is a fake video made by the MKO. I suppose all those other pictures of women being harrassed by the morality police are fakes made by the MKO too! :)))))
Beja
I agree that we (US vs. Iran) are in two very different situations , a difference with a lengh of 50 years may be but guess what was the situation in US or any other developed countries 50 years ago. They did not born free and civilised.
My main aim is to remind Arash that ok. fair we have lots of problem but lets sove our problems at home and not give more excuse to the West to make decision for us. Don’t give excuse to so called” human rights” watch dog which is only a pre-text for some countries to put their disobeient developing countries such as Iran which does not want to conform (as Arabs , Turks, Pakistan and many other third world countries do) to the super powers.
and we have to show the dark side of the West as well so people will get a more realistic view rather than a fantesised West which is innocent, civilised, right in every aspect, good and ……
For all its faults, the current Iranian system still has some rule of law. The fact that such things go on without consequences for the perpertrators indicate a deeper rot in the system.
It is not police states that one should fear. Rather, one should fear INEFFICIENT police states, where excesses are rife and uncontrolled. In the Iranian context, it is a growing sign of weakness when a regime can only retaliate against bad hair, or bad hijab. It is a worse weakness when the retaliation is in such violent manner; the accumulation of all those injustices only stores up worse trouble for later.
Then, the reckoning will be ever more violent.
Mani
The difference between Iran and US/west is simple.
In the West if police or organisations behave inappropriately (for example if they are harassing people, beat them, poke the eye of the person) police could be taken to court. And the injured people can and will win the lawsuit. It would be decried in every newspaper in the country. In Iran police will not allow lawsuit to proceed, or will win lawsuit. and people who will decry it might go to prison.
In US or Canada misbehaviour of police or organisation is loudly condemned, in Iran it is condemned……. but quietly.
In Western countries we talk laudly about what is wrong with our society and in some cases wrongness is attributed to the society and in some cases to the system. In Iran the wrongs of society are also talked about loudly but they are loudly attributed not to the system but to the people and to the influence of foreigners.
In the West we see that we are not perfect and our laws are not perfect but that we and the laws can be changed for the better. In Iran authorities profess tha people are not perfect but the god given law system is perfect. So that the system and the majority of its laws can not be changed.
You are saying that Iran has many problems but Iranians should solve it themselves. Now how do you want to solve it?
After all you said that you did not see anything wrong with behaviour of police in Iran. If you see nothing wrong with police and the authorities so then who is at fault? How can you change anything if you do not challenge police, or challenge authorities or challenge the system..
Perhaps if you do not challege them arogant others will have no excuse to call human rights “watch dog”.
And what is wrong with Human Rights? Ahh, yes, Human Rights is western invention. So then we, Iranians, can condemn some abuses in the western countries. But nobody has rights to talk about Human Rights abuses in our country
We condemn western racism, but we do not condemn our behaviour towards others.
We decry that woman can not go everywhere in the West wearing hijab or burka, but we do not allow visitors to go without hijab in our country.
We condemn islamophobia but if someone likes western stuff we call it westtoxication.
We condemn that we can not have islamic jurisprudence in the West. . but we do not want secular Western laws in our country.
We decry that in the west we can not, sometimes, do da’wa but we prohibit proselytisation in our country.
And whoever wants Human Right watch people in our country is a traitor or has ” lords” in the West.
You want to have a cake and eat it…………………there is no such thing, Mani.
[...] Kamangir says this is a kid getting a beating and apparently a rough hair cut from the Iranian cops, who [...]
Uh and Mani, why IRI does not want to show dark side of the republic?
I mean, six naked girls catch with police guy who protects “Islamic morals”…….if it is not a dark side of the Empire, (ups, wanted to say, REPUBLIC ) what is???
ella
Can you tell me where I said I didn’t see anything wrong with the behaviour of police in that clip? Moreover Western countries may be good for their own citizens but not for the rest of the world. The price of their convenince, high G.D.P, insuarnce and prosperous economy is paid by the suffer of poor people in the middle east and their stupid rulers (who are US puppets and their role is to keep the drums of war ringing so the first word countries economy can go on and more weapons can be sold to the stupid countries. Yes if you live in a Western country every thing look nice and rational but there is a dirty face behind every thing that is hard to discover and you need to be very realistic and unbiased to see it. If a police beat you and you can go to the court, why those 120 people killed by Israili army last week could not claim any thing. Why your innocent Western leaders didn’t condemn the attack at least in surface?
Capitalism and neo-liberalism as the new religions of the modern man use human rights, democracy and civil society (which are all good aspects of modernity) to hide their nasty charcater behind a beatiful dress and probabely you can not expect the media to tell you the whole truth. Yes you may easily bring the gulilty police to the court but you can not probabely question tycoons and superpowers who make decisions about the world and run the economy neither you can see their real victims. Because they are in other countries opressed and with no power to bring those people to any court. No wonder why all nasty areas such as Guantanamo Bay and Tranquility bay are off shore in Cuba or Jamaica.
Probabely if you read a bit of Foucault, Harvey, Castells or at least this book you can get a fresh idea of what is behind this pretty bitch (liberalism) make up.
have a look at this: http://www.plutobooks.com/pdf/9780745316758.pdf
or at least this article article
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
which is written not by an stupid guy like me as you may think but by two smart economists in Canada and Israil
And about the dark side stuff, if they didn’t want to talk aout it Shahroodi wouldnt order his arrest at the first place. as I said we have our own problems and we need time to fix them but lets solve the problem at home. Don’t let jealous neighbours come and make you divorce your wife.
and check some of these links as well
Woman arrested for DWI, beat by police off camera
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB_Hl4bcQNc&feature=related
Man electrocuted to death in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOEh9IjTUvA
Other cases of trasers by police in US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifUHz_WaS04
Police abuse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZoED2pBRU&feature=related
Women beaten by police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KM1ukwBGv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCrc-3-I82U&feature=related
Police Beat Old Man – New Orleans US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKYsX9BhfZk&feature=related
well I can tell this latest brutality from one of the most brutal regimes on the planet has hit a nerve as its caused a backlash of apologists to show up and unload both barrels of hatred towards the west.
Mani
the price of convenience, high GDP and prosperous economy is not paid by suffering of poor people in the middle east. You need to look no further than Korea or former Eastern Europe. Korea was a colony, now it is prosperous country. Eastern Europe was also colonized, not by western countries but by russia. Now, although not very rich they are not exactly poor.
I know quite well that not everything is pretty or beautifull, but no one of the above mentioned countries have oil.
Middle East have oil and a huge amount of money receiving out of the sales of oil for the last thirty and more years. Only a few, majority of them quite small, of ME countries done something with this money. I am not talking only about the rulers but also of the people.
Who do you think is buying majority of ,so called, small weapons – is it a rulers or the ME people and some of ME organisations?
How much money goes for developing weapons and for military in IRI?
Why some of Iranians are proud of development of atomic energy, pasdaran and military procurement of weapons from China?
How much pasdaran is getting money – do you know? Does everybody knows, when its various enterprises are controlled by nobody nor do your bonyads pay taxes.
IRI is not western creation nor are its military, government or clerical authorities.
Now, you said that the governments of middle estern rulers “keep the drums of war ringing” – tell me, why Pakistan, which is a muslim country beats the drums of war? It is not its rulers, it is the people of pakistan who want to spend money on military developments and are proud of this. They are proud because they are the first muslim nation who has atomic bomb and they are proud because they want to get have to get back at India.
Others in Pakistan buy their own weapons because they want to connect with Afghanistan, their own people with whom they have more common than with government in Islamabad.
Now take a look at Saudi Arabia – how much money its people spend on propagating their ideas outside of the country? And how much of that money went to buy weapons, not, mind you, for KSA. Saudi Arabia make billions of dollars out of the sales of oil, what that money went for? And don’t tell me that people of KSA do not like money they got from the government, because they do not pay taxes.
Or perhaps Syria – poor Syria, one of the county which does not have much oil. Don’t tell me that Syria and its people did not gain advantage out of keeping drums of war, first in Lebanon whom it did not recognize officially till today and then with being a defender of arab honour. You think that with change of rulers that defence of honour by way of using weapons would change?
How about Qatar or Jordan – one Jordanian woman coming to the US said that she was missing daily view of carnage on TV, day after day, keeping the drums of war going. And not, mind you, from the official channels but from popular Al Jazeera, who is hardly a US puppet.
You are talking about drums of war coming from “stupid rulers who are US puppets” but majority of people organisations in the ME are talking about war, day in and day out. Sometimes they do not talk about the war now, but later. When we will be more strong, because “[otherwise] our Muslim nation will be subject to a new Crusader invasion targeting the land, honor, belief and homeland”
It is a talk in mosques, in press or on satellite TVs.
And of course if it is not Crusaders,than it is “arrogance”, if that is not arrogance than it is “zionist entity” who killed lately 120 paletinians. Only you forgot to mention that before these deaths Hamas killed 100 palestinians when it did its coup d’etat. You have also forgot to say that Hamas drops the Qassam bombs, rain or shine, on Israel. As well you have forgot to mention that Hamas is a government of Gaza and it is their decisions to do what they are doing ………..so are the consequences. These consequences might be terrible for many palestinians, but they did democratically elected their government. You also forgot to mention that average palestinian was better off financially than Egyptians , Syrians, Indonesians or people from India. The HDI for Occupied Palestinian Territories is 0.731, which gives the country a rank of 106th out of 177 countries” Hmm, interesting, isn’t it?
#####
Capitalism and neo-liberalism are not a new religions but old ideologies. Ideology and religions have something in common but also something which is quite different. The difference is that tenets of ideology are changeable tenets of some religions are, unfortunately, not.
#####
And no, I did not read Focault, Castells or Harvey….too much marxism or nihilism in there.
Reading of modern philosophers or sociologists I leave to people who spent all their lives in the West and who, like some liberal nazi/communist fans in Europe before II WW, are dissatisfied with their own system. They have it all but do not appreciate what they have.
As for two readings you “advised” me to read – there are three caveats:
number one – there are different ways to see the same data.
number two – the same data set can support completely different theories, often contradictory,
number three – to develop own view on truth or falsity of the said theories behind the data one need to be economist – I am not.
Are you???
#######
But sharoudi did order arest, and Montazeri did got angry and Khamenei did allow close proceedings………..but of course political struggle between conservatives need to be kept quiet. aren’t they.? So it is not surprising that you want to talk about oil power and western arogance than about IRI.
As I said, majority of western people know nobody is perfect, do you?
All the prosperous countries you mentioned (Korea, Taiwan, ..) have no oil as you said and isn’t this the reason why there is no war on that side. Why US use to different approch regarding Iran and South Korea (punishment for Iran even whne Albaradei is happy with the co-operation) and encouragement for Korea)because Korea as nothing. And you don’t remember the economic crisis of the four tigers (some Asians still beleive that that US policy and SOROS was behind it)
Of course if you joind the global economy club, no one harm you until your country becomes a big market for American dollars. I don’t want to be pessimistic abpout all aspects of globalism but I don’t beleive in the heaven that is promised by Fridman or Fokayama and alike. Because you shpould also look at the gap between poor and rich in these countries. Iran was going the same way during Shah and that was the reason for the revolution. Because he was a puppet of US. If you don’t like to hear this that’s your decision but probabely David Harvey in his book ” a short introduction to neo-liberalism” reveals the evil face of neo-liberalism. You can also have a look at “Evil paradises : dreamworlds of neoliberalism / edited by Mike Davis and Daniel Bertrand Monk”.
And about the people/ruler discussion in the Middle East I didn’t say that peopel in the middle east are perfect and only their rulers are ass holes. yes all the region is uffering from fundemntalism, extrimisim and cultural backwardness with diferent levels from the worse in Afghanistan to the best like Iran and Turkey. But who is keeping them this way. Who is supporting dictators such as Musharraf and Male Abdellah or Mubarak or even military in Turkey?
Wasn’t the weapon of mass destruction a lie in Iraq and now the same lie for Iran. See Israil has more than 400 nculear messales and no one question that. Why because Isaril is an innocent country. The suffered alot in Holoucaust. West got blind and is rewarding Israil just for their historical shame (even though this is the surface) and in fact Israil is the 51 state of US in the middle east.
Have a look at the military budget of the world and then see which countries are projected as the most dangerous. US alone own half of the world military budget!!
http://www.unpopularideas.com/journal/our-evil-federal-budget.html
and there are even better diagrams if you google it.
About Hemas , I used to see them as a terrorist group and especially after the struggle between Fatah and Hemas it seemed to me that these Arabs are both stupid and violence. Until I start to see the stroy differenlty. Fatah under mahmoud Abbas who is also a pro-US puppet is getting supported by US from Weapons to financial support while Hamas which was elected by people didn’t get any support from US and Israil and probabely when you talk about those 100 people they were Fatah militants. What else do you expect. If US and Isaril wanted peace in the region they should acknowledge Hamas and then they would pave the ground for peace negotiation. But the started to ignore the democracy is their first slogan.
and finally read Manuel Castells article on Welfare states/War states to see the truth behind the beatiful dress ela.Our discussion won’t go any way. I used to think the way your are thhinking now. I used to see US as the angel of the World but not any more.
mani you are crazy. taiwan is protected from invasion by the united states navy. and korea has 35000 american soldiers stationed there and has for the past half century against an invasion by the north. ya, there is no conflict at all in that region….haha.
Thanks Bob,
Your data actually better support my view about US interference in the world. So is it becaue North Korea may attack the South or is it because US want to have a continous pressure over a non-obedient kid like North-Korea and many others Cuba, Venezuella, Iran,……
Every one should join the neo-liberal club or we will force you either by military action or sanction or different interferences from military coup and scalating ethnic conflict to running different organizations such as NED etc as in case of Iran since US started running an Azeri language radio so they can more easily encourage this ethnic groups to become independent and probabely later Kurdish, Arabic and Baluchi radios.
Fantastic this is called democracy be with us or get fucked!!
an in my previous comment I ment North Korea not South Korea. of course south has many things
And Ella
I don’t know what you mean by Hamad coup cause as far as I know they were elected and about Qasam bombs and stuff, compare to Israil military these are more like a joke.
You say “Hamas is a government of Gaza and it is their decisions to do what they are doing ………..so are the consequences.”
but you forget the simple fact that none of Israili or US offcials accepted this simle fact. How can you be a government when they cut all the supports and money, disconnet your electricity, water, gas every thing. You have to die in Gaza
come on Ella, it is like ok you have to ellect Fatah because we don’t like Hamas and know that you went with Hamas you should get fucked !
South Korea is also an international military power, having the 6th largest armed forces in the world and being one of the Top 10 highest military expenditure countries in the world
this is another support for those two economist argument : capitalism and war
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
north korea isn’t a “non-obedient kid” its a brutal communist regime. it murders all dissent, and uses its population as slave labor while maintaining extreme levels of isolation meant to keep the regime in power.
and neo-liberal is a reference to free markets and globalization, using it as a general slur is kind of infantile. words have meanings.
as for any radio america may broadcast into iran’s nasty theocracy. I find myself with a distinct lack of sympathy for the iranian government. america’s democracy is regularly screwed with. we’ve caught hugo chavez, china, the soviets, all trying to funnel money into political parties and causes. and frankly thats probably not even close to all, the fact that the arabs use their oil wealth to internally screw with us is a given in our universities and various muslim activist groups. so go cry your river somewhere else.
Mani
Korea (I did not mention Taiwan) have no oil but there were wars.
Korea is prosperous country with large expenses on military – what does it tell you? That Korea would be prosperous without military, too.
And no, Soros was not behind Asian monetary crisis, IMF probably was, Soros might just have used their wrong (??)decisions for his own purposes.
Friedman and Fukuyama might have promised heaven, but heaven has been promised for many centuries by many people – none of these promises were ever true
.
As for the gap between rich and poor in western countries I probably know better of the gap and of the lives of very poor people in the Western countries than you do. Do you think that I never was very poor in a Western country?
Hmm, military in turkey is very, very popular so people of Turkey are supporting its military. Same with the people of Pakistan.
As for Mubarak ………..I wonder, does Mubarak is supported by the US?
If US would not giver $800 millions for economy per year would that be better for Egypt? And if US demanded that the government of Egypt will tell it what it does with the money would not be that step called US arrogance? Telling others what they have to do with the money? Imperial hubris?
Israel probably does not have 400 nuclear missiles, and even if it had Israel does not loudly profess a desire to get rid of “shia entity” aka Iran.
West is blind, that’s true. It rewards Palestinians with money, it does not check where the money given by EU go for.
As for PA and Hamas…………..well, Hamas did coup d’etat, nothing more nothing less. It did not recognize Israel, this was its decision. So now it wants a recognition of its government from a country which it, itself, does not recognize. If it is not a double standard, what is?
And I really do not care whether you ( a Palestinian, I guess) elect Fatah or Hamas. Palestinians should elect whoever they want, why should I have any say in that?.
On the other hand, the elected government is responsible for its decision and any country can and will react to what the said government is doing and saying.
And why such a hatred for Kurds, they want the same thing as Palestinians do, don’t they? Their own country.
Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela – great countries.
Cuba- the last bastion of communism, even China try not to have anything to do with it. Government which profess beauty of communism and marxism and keeps its people poor.
North Korea – the country whose embassies deal openly in drugs. Where people go to concentration camps for not professing undying love for Kim Il Sung.
Venezuella – president who could have done a lot for its people, instead he now thinks of being “president for life” and wants a war with a neighboring country. War is good for business and for some presidents, you mentioned before.
As for Manuel Castels………..I can paraphrase you (or him) “I used to think the way you are thinking now…………………..but not anymore.”
This video is a Fake. No police in iran would abuse the law in front of the cammera.
They could easily be prosecuted for brutality if this kid took the video and the matter to court.
My cousin was arrested and smaked around a few times,and for that he was advised by the judge to press charges against the police. iran has many problems but it also does have a rule of law and leagal system which is adhered to and where rights of citizens are protected within that frame work.. i doubt naja > iranian police would do this, at least in front of a cammera.
Kamangir: Please take a look at the the other comments for a discussion about your argument.
Bob and Ella
1-I am not Palestinian.
2- I am not a fond of north Korea or Cuba or…. I just don’t want to look at the popular side as your media and politicians always like to talk about.
2-Don’t you think that the US pressure and several nasty things (sanction, war, coup, media …) is one reason among many other things for those regimes to be more worried about their country and therfore become more brutal.
take Iran for example. Iran was a good ally of US during Shah.
Do you know him? may be not but people in Iran know him very well. A dictator who was torturing all oppositions by his SAVAK which was trained under CIA and Mosad probabely. His role : to make Iran a good station for US against Soviet and a good market for US commodietes + the oil
People kicked him out. But then during this 30 years US did not and will not for ever show any sign of co-operation. US wants conflict in the Midlle East until they make another decision. Iran helped US in fighting against Taliban and President Khatami started to normalize the relation. Instead Bush called Iran axis of evil. Thank you Mr. Bush!
Pinoshe in Chilie was another case (probabely one of your favorits) that you should know him better than me and you also may know the Copper mines of Chilie. ha
You are either blind to the dark side of US or don’t want to confess the truth.
your decision. but you better at least have a look at these books just when you are sitting in the train or metro or …
The new imperialism / David Harvey.
Published Oxford : Oxford University Press, 2003.
A Brief History of Neoliberalism by David Harvey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkWWMOzNNrQ
and Ella
israil has 400 atomic messailes and I don’t know what do you mean by this
“West is blind, that’s true. It rewards Palestinians with money”
which money. The reason why Hamas, the elected government of Palestinians could not work was that US and the West refused to support the new government. Isn’t this remind you of one simple fact: cause and effect
and what reward , check this website again http://ifamericansknew.org/ to see the difference between supoort of West for Israil and Palestine (I am not Palestinian)
I reccommend every one to watch this interview with David Harvey, the Professor of Anthropolgy at city of New York University especially the final parts.
New Imperialism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02eskyHJY_4&feature=related
Mani
If you are not fond of North Korea or Cuba why do you say “non-obedient kid like North-Korea and many others Cuba, Venezuela “? Are these countries rejected from international community because they are disobedient, as you said, or are they rejected because their non-elected and elected (Venezuela) rulers keep people in awful condition, prohibit contact with western countries and generally do not follow standards of international behaviour.
In principle you are right, Shah was ally of the US and people in Iran know him well. Some of the people of Iran now say that it is shame that he has been removed.
He was a dictator who sent people for training to the western countries and who afterwards did not provide them with jobs. Now the majority of people are trained in Iran and there are still no jobs for Iranians.
Of course there was SAVAK, now there is VEVAK.
There was an Evin, there is still Evin.
Iranians kicked shah, that’s true and then one of the first countries formally recognizing new government was – wait for it – U.S. Unfortunately new government needed an enemy and US is a great enemy. Therefore students under direction of mullahs invaded US embassy and kept people there for couple of years, one of these invaders was, supposedly, president of Iran.
Iran helped US in the war in Afghanistan for the simple reason…..it was in useful for Iran. Taliban killed couple of Iranian embassy people, Taliban hated shia and deemed shia rejectionists/takfiri, Taliban was pashtun (suni) and they massacred Hazara (shia).
President Khatami started to normalize relations but still Iranian authorities sent weapons to Hezbullah, further more majority of judiciary/police as well as some organisations under direct control of Ayatollah rejected his policies and put major obstacles on his path to normalisation. As an Iranian (?) you very well know that neither Khatami (nor Ahmadinejad) is a leader of IRI, the leader of Iran is Khamenei.
Hamas did not get money because West did not wanted to support it, Hamas did not get money because it did not recognized Israel. Cause and effect.
However talking about money I did not say Hamas, I said Palestinians – that also means Arafat, PA and large monetary help from various international charities.
And lastly “Why west should help Palestinian government?” Why it should help any country? Is it a requirement for the West, an obligation, something that West “must do“? If US and the West “must do it” the question is why? If it does not than it is a choice of this or that country what to spent its money on.
Now for my blindness to “the dark side of USA”.
It seems that you want me to say:
“West is awfull”
“It is the worst system in the world”
“If only you read two books – one on neo liberalism and other one on new imperialism you will know all that is to know about it, i,e. West is Baaaaaad. AMRIKA IS EVIL”
“Any other system is/would be better”
“It would be great if the West and all its countries got broken”.
“Hup Hup Hurra for the death of Amrika” -
Of course if I do not agree, than I am blind like a bat to the evil of Amrika and globalism and the WEST.
So be it.
Let me tell you more, I like being what you call “blind”. I know that USA is not perfect, EU is not perfect, West is not perfect, its democratic system is not perfect, its people are not perfect. Nevertheless it is like Churchill said: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others”
Did you interpret of my reccomendation for seeing also the dark side of the West as
It seems that you want me to say:
“West is awfullâ€
“It is the worst system in the world
And you say Iran helped US fighting Taliban because it was beneficial for it. So why do you think US is fighting for and spending 400 billion $ or maybe more on military and militarization every year. is it for god sake (Rezaye khoda)
And no, US has no obligation on giving money to the third world countries except that this make them more dependdent considering the interests that they have to pay later. in terms of aids do you know that the money that US is giving to the whole South American and African countries is equal to what US gives only to Israil. It is a matter of discrimination.
Regarding the Shah modernization approch , it is now quite well known that top-down modernization just make third world countries more dependent. It is called “dependency theory” and Frank, an American economist has bunch of books about it. That kind of modernization may make the country look modern but in long term it only brings more economic gap (as was clearly manifested in south-north Tehran which is much less aparent in the city now). Can I ask you a question?
Do you think if some activists (students, women etc ) with communist attituttes wanna work in US (Your Utopia of democracy) the government will let them do whatever they want? So why people expect that Iranian regime let all kinds of activities with links to the American or Europian organizations to work freely against the state policies?
And eventhough Khamenei is the supreme leader, the reformist movement was also under his leadership so if he was totally against it , he could stop it. If he could not that means that Iranian regime is not as brutal as the media is projecting.
Which country is more brutal Iran or Israil within whic heven women have military training?
And so why do you think US or what you call “international community” only isolate some of this so called “brutal regimes” and embrace others?
Isn’t Saudi Arabia a brutal regime, no because it is a good friend of US
Isn’t China itself a brutal regime, no because it is a good economic partner of US
Aren’t Pakistan or Turkey regarding its treatment of Kurds a brutal regime no because they fulfil American interests.
Come on Ela, in this world, every country is looking for its own interest. some like US knows how to use media and cover their invasion of other countries under beaitiful masks and some of them not.
We just should be careful to not to be fulled and help to establish and expand democracy and human right worldwide and for every one not only for a minority White, blond or members of neo-liberal club.
no, the brutal regimes are brutal because they are run by power mad tyrants. The iranian theocracy has called the united states the great satan for three decades, I fail to see how that you should be shocked we wouldn’t want to cooperate. if I ran america I would certainly not want to “open up” to a bunch of fanatical hatemongering tyrants. even if real politik was involved I would still be hesitant.
and of course saudi arabia is a horrible regime, infact they carry a lot of similarities to the filth that comes out of iran. but we have a long standing alliance with saudi arabia. aramco, saudi arabia’s oil company stands for arab american corporation. we found their oil, we promised to essentially protect them back when they were a very sparsely populated desert country with an enormous amount of oil. I would LOVE nothing more than to treat saudi arabia like we do iran. it would make my heart jump with joy to tell the bigots in the kingdom to stuff it up their collective asses for spreading the most hateful, violent, and racist ideology on the planet.
Hamid, if he takes them to the court and somehow gets a little famous too, will get e life sentence. BTW nothing will happen for the cops.
Mani
Read bob answer.
As for China and Pakistan – they are both very good allies to Iran.
Pakistan helped Shah and later Khomeini to improve China-Iran relationships. It was Pakistan who make possible official visits to China from Iran, back in 1980s. And it was China who sold weapons to Iraq and to Iran during Iraq-Iran war.
As for Pakistan, you do know that shiya are terrorized in some Pakistan provinces. However does IRI tells its people about the living condition of shiya in Pakistan? Protests to Pakistan? Breaks the relations with Pakistan?
The answers are: no, no and no.
As for your question regarding “some activists” with communist attitudes who want to work in US? Of course US would allow them to do that, unfortunately. How do you think the former USSR got an atom bomb – from the scientific achievements of its own scientists?
US not only allows many people with anti-american attitudes to work but to preach their ideology in US without any major penalties, in fact, usually with no penalties at all. The line is drawn when these people want not only to preach their ideology but to make bombs and kill people.
Neda,
As Farhad backed my earlier comments, no police in Iran would have the courage to do such an act in front of the camera – the problem is a lot of you guys are out of touch with the daily life in Iran as you have not lived in here for a while and you also have heard lots of lies from your relatives who live inside the country – as we know Iranians are master of distorting facts!!
btw, don’t get me wrong I am not a supporter of the IRI but I would give credit where it’s due and hate distorting facts.
[...] should be, with an unconventional device. They beat him, laugh at him and insult him. you can read what people say about this event here [...]
Bob
Thanks for your honesty!!
and ella I don’t think so. I just refer to the Charli Chaplin , the modern era” movie no any other historical document because I am terrible in history and how communist activists were caught by police and jailed and it is more than obvious that know US is controlling any relation between US and foriegn countries, just mention some thing about 9/11 in your phome and FBI will be on your door. I had a Srilancian friend here , an academic who has criticized Australian government in a conference overseas, next they police was on his door questioning him for his comments. how they expect Iran let activists use US and Holland organization money against the government.
Mani
I mentioned 9/11 many times on my phone – no police/FBI at my door.
Weird, but I do not live in USA so may be that’s why.
On the other hand some people I talked with on the phone live in US, they also did not get visit from FBI and/or police.
Hmm, maybe my friends are exceptions, because they are not of ME extraction.
But wait, some of them are.
Very, very strange.
#####
“I had a Srilancian friend here…next they police was on his door questioning him for his comments”
“in here” means in Iran, in Australia, in Holland or in the USA?
If “in here” means in the West I am surprised that you want to live there, it seems somewhat of contradiction.
And you are saying your friend is from Sri Lanka, furthermore you are saying that police have been questioning him for his comments on Australian government.
Sri Lanka police? Australian police? US police?Dutch police?
I live in Australia, Ok and the fact that why I am living here not in Iran or any where else is irrelevant to the topic of our discussion. Because I am criticizing some aspects of US I don’t have a right to live here ?, and to make it clear don’t worry, I am going back to my country in 6 months and I will be always a criticizer of any nasty aspects of any thing even IRI.
If Bob or Robby or any other US residents don’t accuse Bush policies in the Middle East it is not a big surperise but you, who are Iranian I suppose, should remember that if one day, which I hope will never arrive, US wanted to invade Iran or bomb it in the name of democracy or whatever shit that Bush, Dick Cheny, John Bolton or other bastards in Israili lobby claim, you should stand in front of your people, look them in the eye and repeat all your support for US policies and what so called “punishment of brutal regimes”.
I claim that US punishment policies regarding some regimes is not because they are brutal but because they are not serving it benefits. You say no.
My reason: US follow quite different approches toward some brutal regimes (Saudis, Pakistan, China, Israil etc ) vs. others (Iran, Cuba, Venesuela,..).
It is more than clear to me that the conflict in the Middle East is only for future energy and the fact that US only wants one power in this region and that is Israil make sense . There were (remember were) three powers in the Middle East. Israil, Iran and Iraq. As soon as American puppet (Shah), who was returned to power by the military coup of 1953 by the help of C.I.A which lead to the owerthrown of democratic government of Mosaddegh, was overthrowned by Iranian people, Iran should be omited from the list. So they encouraged Iraq to invade Iran so this two powers would fuck each other and what better than this, US and other countries could sell their weapons and Israil can become more powerful. The plan failed. Iraq could not finish Iran. So bad despite all the support for Saddam.
and So pitty for Saddam because now it is his turn. Iraq became the victim and now it is time between Israil and Iran. Only one of this powers should remain in the region for the future of energy. No wonder US is looking for different excuses to bomb, sanction , running different anti-regime institutes and ethnic group radios to put pressure on Iran.
Whether you support your country or US and Israil is your choice. this is the end of my discussion and you can have whatever opinion you like but if US want to stay a prosperous centre of democracy and humanity, it should revised its global policies and stop this homogenization of the world via slogans such as globalization and neo-liberalization.(which I doubt it happens because the rules of the game is war for economy as is reflected in the article http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
Hope the next US president (either Clinton or Obama) make a big change in this aspect. Otherwise the predictions of Naomi Wolf in her book ” the end of America” might come true.
If america was really in the middle east “just for the oil” then we would have thrown the jews under the bus decades ago and sided with the islamist racists. Israel has no oil. and if it was for energy there is not even a contest between siding with israel or iran. iran is one of the most energy rich nations on the planet, and israel has basically nothing. how is that a contest?
as for your reductio ad absurdum of united states foreign policy, I assure you that how you treat your citizens matters. geopolitics is complex though. and lets face it if we required adherence to human rights we wouldn’t be friends with a single muslim nation on the planet.
the general united states policy in the middle east is:
1)protect israel from the surrounding genocidal racists.
2)maintain border integrity, this is why we wanted a stalemate in iran vs iraq, and why we kicked saddam back out of kuwait, and why we protect saudia arabia. we don’t want conquerors in the oil rich regions.
3)promotion of pro american attitudes. huge shock here, we like ppl who like us.
4)human rights. its a little down the list, but there’s not much to be done in a region with a such a powerful religious establishment that is so violent to even the most basic expressions of human freedom.
5)democracy promotion. bush’s big idea. more long term aspiration than active foreign policy(besides iraq).
as for any notion that america goes around and arrests people who question the united states or hold anti-american attitudes. I have to laugh out loud. if only you knew the seething hatred of america that goes on inside my country.
http://www.zombietime.com
Bob
You didn’t read the article thats why you don’t understand the relation between establsihment of Israil, Oil and war in the Middle East.
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/specials/cheapwars
and your arguments:
2- “protect israel from the surrounding genocidal racists”
how about protecting Palestinians from genocidal racists including Sabra and Shatila tragedy, Gaza tragedy, Lebenese war … even statistically arguing it is clear that Israil killed more palestinians than vice versa and I am surpersied while many people in Australia are Anti-Bush you are so keen to him.
3-”maintain border integrity, this is why we wanted a stalemate in iran vs iraq”
You should know which part started the invasion and killed even its own peope (Kurds) by chemical weapons from Germany and France. You didn’t want to maintain border integrity you just wanted to sell your weapons and let these two countries screw each other.
4-”promotion of pro american attitudes”
I think Bush policies were very successful especially in this aspect !!!!!
5-”human rights”
Why we always here human rights news from Iran which is by far more democratic than other US allied i.e. Saudi Arabia. A country where women didn’t have I.D. some years ago and can not drive or vote and just sentenced a poor women who was gang raped by 5-6 men because of being with a non-related man. How about that.
The human right situation in Iran is not perfect but neither it is in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt and Israil, all other US allied.
Watch this video and I hope it improves the image of Iran in your mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMJQwbPrdE
6-democracy promotion. bush’s big idea
I talked about this stupid idea via military action in my discussion with Robby
if anyone is trying to genocide the palestinians they are doing a piss poor job. the palestinian population has increased 500% in the last 6 decades. of course talks about the palestinians being “genocided” is just the racist rhetoric that is promoted in the islamic world.
and I love the constant insinuation that selling a weapon to somebody makes you automatically culpable for what they do with it.
I’d say overall your retorts fundamentally ignore the very point of me making that list, GEOPOLITICS IS COMPLEX. the fact that you think you can pander to the crassest most unintellectual explanation of why and who america befriends in the world just show that you are a product of a propaganda machine and not a free thinking individual.
Bob
I wanted to provide you some statistics on Israil/Palestine deth tolls since 6 decades ago but then thought , when you don’t want to accept the obvious and clear un-balanced power relation between the two sides of this conflict why should I waste my time because even if I provide you valid and clear statistics regarding the brutality of the occupier regime of Israil, you would deny it and say that this is not the case. So I leave you with your clear and straightforward political tendencies which is not like mine “a product of a propaganda machine but a free thinking individual !”
Only look at this one from united nation office for the coordination of Humanitarian Affairs which is both a valid and neutral organization:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d08006f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument
obviously the power relations are unbalanced, then again thats NOT the definition of genocide. see earlier about sloppy use of facts and the truth. and the united nations is about as neutral an organization towards israel as the catholic church is towards homosexuals.
just one of like 400 thousand examples. tens of millions of people were displaced in the 20th century, including millions of germans from the former soviet union, jews from…well everywhere. tens of millions of hindu’s from newly independent pakistan and bangladesh, millions of africans, even chinese during the great famine. of ALL these tens of millions of people who has permanent refugee status that is literally passed down generation to generation? the palestinians. thats it. the islamic countries game the united nations as a way of exerting EXTREMELY RACIST pressure on israel. I’ve seen what the islamic world teaches its children. its not mild supremacism, or national pride, its nazi level racism.
I am not supporting Palestinians as a Muslim, because I am a secular Iranian and I don’t give a shit if they are muslim or sunni or shia or whatever. I only think that Israel should acknowledge their rights, return the occupied lands in the West bank and let them run a referundom for their independency. Then the whole 50 years conflict over the land (which is in fact not the main reason for the conflict) will be over. I hate any racism or stupid comments about Jews by Arabs but do not only blame Arabs. don’t you think that Jews are also responsible for scalating this hatedness? Imagine if you have to go through check points every day and be humiliated by the police on the land that even Israeli politicians (Sharon and Olmert) call it occupied.
You seem to have a very negative image of muslim countries which might be due your personal experience or what you have heard or read but eventhough I am also sick of religion of any kinds, I guess some parts of this so called “war on terror” should be seen as a part of enemy creation machine of the world superpowers. One day it was the “cold war” and Soviets now it is “Alqaeda” and “Osama” and probabely this one can last as long as US wants it since it has no formal organization or geographical limit and this “Mr. Osama” can release some shits every year without being caught or traced.
Meanvile have you ever heard any Iranian names among those hi-jackers or terrorists? I havn’t, they were mostly from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan but where are US troops now? in Afghanistan and Iraq and may be Iran next. find the orange (a Persian pro-verb)! and you might know Iranians were amongst rare muslim countries which organized big candle-light vigils for America after September 11, in sympathy.
Source: http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitchens-hacker-and-hitchens.html
I imagine its humiliating to have things like checkpoints for ambulances, then again, the palestinians try to smuggle weapons in ambulances so what is to be done? if I controlled israel I would dismantle all the settlements and pull every control away from the west bank and gaza. then if palestine attacked me I would consider it a declaration of war and lob artillery and bombs at the positions regardless of where they are. of course I would be attacked viciously by the international media for this. which is the heart of why israel can’t leave, is because they are not allowed to defend themselves from afar. the only effective defense is to be able to police the palestinians to stop attacks and arrest people. if they couldn’t do this the only choice would be to return fire.
I’d say I have a mixed view in some respects. I have a pretty positive view of iranian people, a severely negative view of the regime. I have a very negative view of saudi arabia though. I really do hate the saudi’s. many places in the islamic world were moderate and relatively pleasant before saudi ideology became dominant, then imams from all over the world were trained in riyadh. malaysians are taught with saudi textbooks to hate jews. how warped is that world? I’m not even sure there’s a jew in malaysia. the exporting of saudi religion is one of the great crimes of the 20th century.
and in fact Wahabi sect.
However watching this video is making me upset and this is not to say that only Jeweish behave badly toward Arabs. the construction of hateedness is mutual but it is sad that you see such ethnic and religion conflict seven among Jweish-Israelis and Arab-Israelis or even with Arab-Christian Israilis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0o_07BBk0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&feature=related
Mani
Wrong guess, I am not Iranian.
And I do support my country, which is neither Israel, nor US or Iran.
Now your arguments to bob.
2. sabra and shatila was only an example of human rights violation, but it was not genocide. Genocide is completely different stuff – the definition of genocide is “The deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire people who belong to one racial, political, cultural or religious group” which sabra and shatila was not.
Sabra and shatilla was an example of what is happening to people when some of the other people in Lebanon got angry. You are forgetting that the only accusation against Israeli was that they stood by and allowed Moronites to kill palestinians. And why maronites did that?, Simple, they were angry with that palestinians tried to rule Lebanon. Palestinians were booted out of Jordan and they were booted out of Lebanon, later. Palestinians are not Lebanese nor are lebanese palestinians.
People in Australia may be angry at Bush but they are also angry at genocidal statements of Ahmadinejad, after all why the new premier of Australia wants to take Ahmadinejad to the court of law? The old one wanted to do that, the new one is not different.
3. It may be true that some people in the west wanted to sell weapons, but others wanted to buy weapons, after all why Iran is buying and developing weapons right and left?
5. Unfortunately your argument that human rights in Iran are better than in surrounding countries does not hold water. Iran did have better human rights under Khatami, now human rights in Iran are not much better than in Saudi Arabia. Although women can go to school they do not have the same rights as men, even in competitions for places at the University they will have to get better grades than men to get in.. Your Leader loudly promotes one party over the other during the election to Majlis. Your president seeds all major posts with Pasdaran people. Your police act like religious police in Saudi Arabia. The difference between rich and poor is growing, the military and the mullahs are riding in german cars but poor can hardly afford a car, not to mention a gasoline.
As for Pakistan, Turkey Egypt and Israel – they are (apart from israel) not only US allies but some of them are also Iran allies. Iran have a treaty with Turkey to find and destroy any Kurdish pro-independence people. Egypt is not so close with Iran (naturally) but some of the propaganda coming out of Iran is similar to the one coming out of Egyptian Al Azhar. Pakistan is an ally of Iran. Even Taliban is lately an ally of Iran, Iran support a “new” Taliban.
Regarding brutality of Israeli policy towards palestinians – funny, why can palestinian MP talk about destruction of Israel, in israeli parliament no less, without any serious consequences? that is really brutal, I guess.
Arash being voted in balatarin is not a proof. See this link https://balatarin.com/permlink/2008/2/27/1238351, it voted 100 times even without one negative in balatrin. Then one day later, this new link http://balatarin.com/permlink/2008/2/28/1239023, exactly against previous one, got voted 60 times in balatarin. Just being voted in balatarin is not a proof. Do not rely on it so much.
Ella,
Was good to to know your nationality as well.
1-the issue of those countries being or not being allied of Iran is irrelevant to our discussion as our major disagreement was over the inconsistent behaviour of US toward so called “brutal regimes”.
2- Those areas (Sabra and Shatila) were under Israel cotrol and therfore their responsibilty and letting such Massacre to happen was Israel fault. It is like difference between killing someone by your hand or paying some one to do it for you or leaving the door open for a murderer to come and kill the victim.
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Bj5_AOico
3-Eventhough aftre Khatami, there were more control over cloths and women wearings in particular, its comparison with Saudi Arabia where women can not vote, drive is hillarious. not agree, watch this
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMJQwbPrdE
4-”even in competitions for places at the University they will have to get better grades than men to get in”- non-sense
What is your refrence for this statement? Women had more enteries than males in Universities ( % 60 as far as I remember) and they all have to pass the same exam.
5-and regarding the economic gap between rich and poor, I assume that you don’t mean that in globalizing cities such as in China and India or US itself there is not such as gap. As far as my poor economic knowledge says, globalization make this gap wider.
6- and you made another funny statement by saying “Even Taliban is lately an ally of Iran, Iran support a “new†Taliban” which reminds me of McCain comment
watch it here , it is so fun
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=qiUV6_aawTQ&feature=related
not to mention this article on the Independent which rarely get a chance to appear worlwide in the hegmoy of media:
British plan to build training camp for Taliban fighters in Afghanistan
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/revealed-british-plan-to-build-training-camp-for-taliban-fighters-in-afghanistan-777671.html
mani it is not “inconsistent” anymore than for someone to understand it they have to have an IQ above 90. I guess though that subtlety and international politics is irrelevant here, and that only demagoguery and propaganda should count.
Bob
You are right. “Inconsistent” is not the right word since all countries may change their policies over time. may be as you said propaganda or slogans in the name of democracy, human rights and alike are the right terms.
Mani
No.5
It is not a nonsense statement, women do take 55% places at university however that does not mean that they do not need to have better grades than men to get to some faculties. In fact 39 majors at Iranian Universities require women to have better grades than men to get in. That means that in 39 majors 30-40 % are allocated for women and the rest for men. If the playing field was equal the women would not take only 55% of places at various universities but more likely 60% or 65%.
The data are from Rooz but you can check the validity of the data at your neighborhood university as soon as you return to Iran.
No.5
Gap between poor and rich is everywhere and has been elsewhen, to point out fingers at globalization and the western policies is naive. In your country you have Rafsanjani who is one of the richest guys in the world and you have some mullahs who are not far behind. Even many of your people from pasdaran are not exactly in the middle class range, some are pretty rich. And none of these people got rich because of globalisation, in fact, some got rich because of under-table dealings and wide spread corruption. True, corruption is not uncommon in the west but still it is less common than in the East.
NO. 6
Well, it may seem funny to you but nevertheless it is true.
……..The countries in the region, the Persian Gulf monarchies in particular, seriously fear the transformation of the Islamic Republic into a regional power. The greatest worry for the countries in that region is the de facto recognition of the Islamic Republic as a regional power by the West and above all by the United States. The nuclear issue, support to the Lebanese Hezbollah, support to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and lastly the increasingly solid presence in Iraq are the trump cards that Ahmadinejad’s Iran can play in its game with the West.
Ahmadinejad holds other cards too: support to the unyielding Shiite Yemenite minority fighting against the central government, the ambiguous support offered to the Afghan Talibans, and the backing given to the Shiite minorities in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Kuwait…….
from AdnKronos International .
As for the news from Independent – I would take all Karzai is saying or doing with a grain of salt, even his data, which could be faked. Personally I wouldn’t touch Karzai with a six foot pole – he is better than Taliban but only just. .And I found that many news from the Middle East (and elsewhere) are only as good as the reporter’s fixer. ;-)
I will back mani on one point, globalization increases the gap between rich and poor in industrialized nations. this it changes the nature of the supply/demand game between talented and untalented labor, it also acts as a wedge against unions becoming incredibly powerful. in 1950′s america you could be middle class with a decent work ethic and a high school diploma. globalization put extreme pressure on high paying uneducated jobs. the simple fact is if the job requirements are hard working+literate there’s billions of people who fit that. and most of them earn mere fractions of what westerners earn.
also another observation on rich/poor and capitalism/communism. it is worth pointing out that one of the detriments of america is not that the rich/poor divide is so large, but that we create SO MANY rich ppl. we are like a factory producing millionaires and those millionaires go out in society and are noticed. in more statist/collectivist societies the wealth is far more concentrated into the political elite(like iran, russia, cuba, saudia arabia) and the perception is that everyone is more equal because there are vastly fewer rich ppl.
infact I went and looked on wiki, .62% of north americans have networths over a million dollars. and north america throws in mexico too. while the next closest is europe with .41%, thats only 2/3rds as many/capita.
Ella
Rafsanjani, as you mentioned is one of the guys who was more than keen to become American friend in IRI and to neo-liberalize economy, and since there is not enough control as in the West over economic relations he became the richest man of Iran. In fact some people see the supreme leader , Khamenei, vs. Rafsanjani as two sides of a conflict over international policies. One corrupted and pro-Western the other more anti-Western but at least not corrupted. That is the danger of neo-liberalization in third world countries without providing the basics i.e. strong law and judicary and cultural ground (being too rich is not a good thing in Persian culture while in US it is the opposit)
There are some economists in Iran who beleive to democratize the country we need to privatize every thing. That reduces the state power over the nation but they don’t see the context. This needs to be done gradually as supreme leader also is one of the major supporter of the 44th rule of the constitution law (privatization).
But the poor also suffer because of several sanctions that rulers of this jungle (sorry the World) put on them because they have the power to do that disregard of what Albaradei says or the intelligent services of US themselves just released.
And they just keep repreating some pre-packaged and easy to link and digest stuffs such as “wipping Israil off the map”+ “Atomic bomb” = Iran wants to make boms to wipe Isarel off the map
too easy , like Bollywood movies , you don’t need to use any brain, this scenario is so perfect that no one ask himself, but is any state that much stupid to do that? Especially since Israel already has 400 atomic rockets and obviously if IRAN do this its poeple are the first who will suffer. Remember Iraq inavsion of kuwait which was a green light of US for the final plan.
watch this as well Pls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ
lots of poor cultures have moors against being ostentatious and rich. often enforced by the political elite who own all the money. britain has had them, america had them w/ the puritans. its pretty common, its just a form of moral collectivism.
and I’d say the most credible fear of iranian weapons is not that they will use a missile to deliver them to israel. but that they will use a third party to deliver a nuke on a ship into tel aviv. if it took a month to figure out who to bomb would israel really retaliate with nukes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBNMDjj5LKc&NR=1
I personally don’t visit your racist propaganda mani. just incase you were wondering if I was clicking all the links.
In that sense, there might be a chance that some parties in let’s say Hezbollah, ask some of their brothers in Pakistan to deliver some atomic bombs to them so if they could be succesful in the deal, there can be a possibility of shipping this package through Iran. Then if they could pass Iraq or Turkey if not Suez canal, they might send …………………. so we should go an bomb Pakistan because …………………
this may and might and if then scenario is very irritating to mee and I don;t know what is the role of Albaradei in this game. Well Israeilis alreadys called him Iranian allied so what else we expect. Who ever do not follow the 5+1 countries out of (how many countries we have in the world) should be punished.
not a big deal Bob, every one has brain and can use it .
your racist propaganda doesn’t engage the brain, it engages the emotions. showing arab youth constant images of the brutality of the “dirty jews” is how we got to where we are now.
Wrong bob,
may be because as you said you didn’t watch them. I have two Israeli friends personaly so you can’t stick such lable to me (racist). The first video was about how media spread one world, it is nothing to do with racism. The second one aslo was about the conflict between Orthodox Jews who are against the political notion of Zionism and some Zionist Jews. I don’t call this racism but just a political preference. I don’t like Zionism and it has nothing to do with racism.
really you have two israeli friends? do you have black friends too(american joke)?
if you wanted to make a point about conflicts inside the israeli community you can discuss them! posting video of people beating the crap out of other ppl is not “discussion.” just for example two arab youths kicked a jews head in in new york a couple days ago while screaming allah ackbar. should this have been caught on video I would not go around pasting it as a means to inflame ppl against arabs then say “I’m only starting discussion.”
See Bob,
I know that there is no such a black and white world. neither any good and evil as your president try to define the world. I already discussed some of my views (right or wrong) and god damn it because all these economic, political cultural what ever are so weaved to gether when ever we discuss some thing you feel you have to go back to the begining of the story. I don’t like sending a video as a refrence, of course that is stupid. but if you go back to my posts you see I tried to provide reference for most of my claims either a link, a video etc. Eventhough you tube is not a valid source at all , but when you wanna say see, how McCain make a full out of himself when he said “Iran is training Alqaeda and send them to Iraq” well at least you can see that that really happened.
My last video was only regarding the last comment of Ahmadi Nejad (eventhough I don’t support all his views at all) that Zionism won’t work as any Islamist or ideologic state can not work. They will collapsed from inside and you see that there are these opoositions inside the Israeil regime.
and my two friends names are Ilan and Iris if you wanna know.
and before I forget,
“posting video of people beating the crap out of other ppl is not “discussion.â€
Isn’t this what media do many times, without giving a chance for discussion or even the post of this weblog by Arash Kamangir is another example. Well at least it is open for discussion!
Cheers,
forget the shit, enjoy your life :))
if america really viewed the world as so “black and white” then why all the whining about foreign policy “hypocrisy?” seems to me you can’t keep having it both ways, either we’re ardent absolutists who only understand the most base of explanations or we’re crafty hypocrites who wouldn’t know how to apply ourselves consistently if we wanted to.
as for mccain, while I have no idea what he really said about iran and al qaeda he might have been referring to things like this
http://www.nysun.com/article/58507
you can LOL that iran is shia and al qaeda is sunni, but iran also backs hamas. that iran would fund modestly divergent extremist groups as a means to destabilize and occupy western forces is hardly a stretch.
I said Bush not the whole America and Iran doesn’t deny its support for Hamas, Hamas is as much a terririst group as the Israili army is. fair enough
yes well the executive branch controls foreign policy, thats bush. and the israeli army is nothing like the psychos in hamas.
Mani
I would not put Rafsanjani as very keen on being american friend, he is one of the presidents of IRI under whom money and transports of weapons to Hezb went out day and night. His ideas about neo-liberalization of economy are definitely Middle Eastern. As for Khamenei, he controls all fundations (bonyads). . No-one knows his monetary worth because nobody is allowed to check how much money he and his familly have. You can check how much money some of the mullahs have but how can one check how much money Khamenei has? And Khamenei is supporter of the privatization but ………..hmm, there was recently some privatization moves (supported by Khamenei) where pasdaran and some of IRI aparatchiks bought most of the privatized enterprises, without any auctions or tenders. Some people complained, but their complains were rejected.
And talking about culture, Persian culture is special, but you are wrong , being too rich is not a bad thing in persian culture, being too rich and loudly proclaiming one’s worth is ;-)
El Baradei – It would be good to read what el Baradei written and what his specialists wrote. There is a difference between statements in the newspapers saying “IRI no longer has nuclear program” and the statement “IRI stopped nuclear programs in 2003″. The first statement is not equal to the second.
There is also a difference between saying “Iran co-operates with IAEA by giving access to all known nuclear sites” and the statement “IRI co-operates with IAEA by giving access to all nuclear sites.” The first statement is claiming that IRI gives an access to known sites and only to known nuclear sites and is not equal to the second one. OF course if MEK did not inform IAEA in 2003 about some nuclear IRI sites these sites will not be accessible to IAEA. That statement also means that the data given recently by MEK to IAEA was unknown when IAEA gave its statement last year.
Finaly, talking about nonsensical statements the following statement is an absolute nonsense “Remember Iraq inavsion of kuwait which was a green light of US for the final plan”
Remember Iraq invasion of Kuwait – I do not exactly remember it, but have heard of it.
which was a green light of US – you mean Iraq got a green light from US to invade Kuwait and that is why US cobbled a coalition against Iraq and protected Kuwait..
green light of US for the final plan – “final plan” means what? a crusade against all muslims by way of supporting Kuwait? final plan for coming of Mahdi? something else?
#######
IRI does not deny its support for Hamas or Hezbullah. IRI did deny its monetary and military support for both organisations, but not any longer.
ups, sorry, MEK gave information to IAEA about nuclear facilities in Iran in 2002, not in 2003.
and would you explain to other audiences thay may not be familiar with Iranian history who is this MEK? because they might think this is an N.G.O or a human right organization and not a terrorist group. It is like asking P.K.K about Turkey.And you probabely know that neither Pakistan nor India even didn’t signed NPT but have nuclear weapons. It reminds me of Gorge Orvel masterpiece. All peopel are equal but some are more equal. Can you tell me why all developed countries have nuclear weapons at the first place? They don’t probabely keep them for fun? Do you know why those countries who talk about peace , spend most on militarization. For god sake go and read Manuel Castells, this guy is not my cousin neither a supporter of IRI. He is one of the most famous sociologist of this century. go and read his notion of Warstates vs. welfare states.
I don’t like the current IRI regime especially its control of people, youths and women but neither the bullying of US and its ass-kissers (Sarkosy, Blair, …) and their blindness to the brutality of Israeli regime. West has been so ashamed about what happened to Jews in the second world war that has became blind to the current situation in Palestine, Gaza. West bank …or may be because they hate Arabs so much after 9/11 that they generalize all Arabs as violent and stupid so they call Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists but regard the Israeili attacks as defence!
End of my discussion
Go and enjoy your Norouz since I suspect you are Iranian! :))
north korea and saudi arabia have some of the most dispraportionate military budgets. in general the west spends almost nothing on its military. during vietnam america spiked up to 16% of GDP on its military, now its 4% in iraq. most other western nations spend around 2% which is historically almost nonexistent.
and 1984 is about the dangers of socialism, not about discrepancies in foreign policy. unless you just want to take license with it(which many do).
Oh bob,
Thank you for telling this because I can assure you that either you don’t know any thing about military or picked up a wrong diagram from your Atlas.
US only owns half of the world military budget that means all other countries (Russia, China, Europe, South America…) all together spend the same as US on their military budget. Well we don’t need to argue about this. Just go and goole it please.
Just goole “World military budget”. I already did it and teh first link is this one.
check it out.
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp
The war in Iraq according to one of your economists only has cost three trillions dollars. I can’t even imagin it. According to dateline program which is shown every Tuesday here in Australia, with one Thrillion dollars you can give 40 million students 4 years scholarship for Ph.D.
Wow that means it was better to send all Iraqi peopel to do a Ph.D in Western countries rather than to invade their countries :)))
yes we spend about half the worlds military, but thats still only like 4.4% of GDP. which historically is low-ish for america. the reason we are so big in terms of the world is because the next two huge economies, japan and europe are protected by us and spend almost nothing.
the trillion dollar price tags are assuming what the war will cost over the next 40-50 years(veterans payments, disabilities, refurbishing machinery vs its life expectancy). you’ll also be fascinated to know that in our welfare state over the next 60 years we have 59 trillion dollars of unfunded liablities.
I’d also like to point out that america is not short on PHD students. infact most useful PHD areas are overflowing with domestic and international competition. unless you think getting a PHD is a trophy.
wow this guy is so arrogant :)))))
wow tough counter argument.
Mani
It is funny, if someone knows a little about Iran you suspect one is Iranian, if one does not know much about Iran you condemn them for not knowing anything about Iran.
MEK is a terrorist organisation but, WOW, its informations about IRI nuclear programs are good. It has been checked by IAEA and found correct. I suspect MEK has a mole(s) in IRI nuclear establishment. And why not, after all it supported marxists and many Iranians had (have???) soft spot for marxists…….even a terrorist ones, like MEK.
Pakistan and India – they did not signed NNPT that’s why they do not need to follow IAEA requirements, IRI signed NPT that’s why it has to allow IAEA supervisors and follow the treaty requirements.
Now, Sarkozy is not an ass-kisser, he conducts what he thinks is the best policy for France. In my view his policy vis-a-vis Iran is better than the policy of his predecessor, as is his policy towards Hezbullah. Of course some may have different view-point.
Israeli policy might be brutal but so is the policy of Hezbullah and Hamas……………daily Qassam rockets and suitcases full of money which go to buy materiel and do not go for improvement of palestinian lives.
BTW there are tons of books in the West.
If one doesn’t like Bush and US policy one can read famous sociologists, politicians and historians who agree with that point of view. If one do like US policy or globalisation there are many authors, equally famous, who write about good points of US policy.
If one thinks IRI is the best system for Iranians one can read about that.
If one thinks americans do not understand Iranians and will never understand Iranians because Iranians have culture and the west do not have culture than there are tons of such books.
If one thinks that IRI is an awful system for Iranians and americans should bomb iran to smithereens one can also read stuff agreeing with that.
Pah, there are not only books but articles, movies, YouTube videos and so on and so forth.
So for every marxist Manuel Castells there is always one capitalist Fukuyama….or someone :-)
So what, why we are arguying then, that is the healthy aspect of these weblogs for diferent views to share their adeas.You don’t expect me to accept all your ideas neither do I. We just provide different materials so the other person can see an issue from different perspectives not only one. You don’t want to stay a capitalist all your life , do you? neither do I. At the end of the day of course there are repulicans, democrats, marxists, capitalists, black, white, Muslim, Christian,……..
any way why you hesitate to mention your nationality?
I am an architect, 31 years old, Iranian, living in Melbourne, you?
Bob,
I try to convince my self that war in Iraq was worthed it but remembering that loose organizations such as Alqaeda or Taliban which don’t have any clear form and work more like a network via civil wars, bombing, it is difficult to do that.I don’t think spending so much on military can be justified only by “war on terror”and the fact that after invasion of Iraq number of terrorists and Alqaeda members actually increased there is undeniable. Bush wants to remove the infected parts not to cure them.
Instead of spending so much money on military action it was a wiser idea to combat with Madrassas and education system in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia which breed such fundamentalists and put more pressure on Saudis rather than more moderate socities such as Iran unless we come to the point that such wars in the name of “war on terror” or democracy are rather a pre-text for other purposes.
While in US more than % 10 don’t have health insurance, I would rather spend some of that money for my people rather than making wars around the world.
I didn’t say it was worth it, I was merely putting it in context for you. and its hard to fight the saudi’s because of their oil. and also this transfer of money is very socialist, if you don’t believe in the war fine, don’t goto war and you will not have spent the money on it. but if you think the war is actually valuable then it is far more important than increasing america’s welfare state. socialists always try to take money from things like national defense and pretend its perfectly fungible and can just be spent anywhere they want.
Did I say that discussion is not helpful? If I thought so I wouldn’t write here.
As for nationalities of people – I thought that my nationality is irrelevant to this discussion but it seems you think differently. Well, to alleviate your curiosity – I am Polish, not Iranian. ;-)
Mani: You’re either willingly ignorant or terribly naive to think the IRI is not capitalist system and has not increased the gaps between the have and the “have” and the have Not”. A cursory look at the GDP during the shah’s era will illuminate my assertion.
There are more than 40% who live below poverty level in Iran. The GDP despite unprecedenat oil revenues in Iran’s history is still the same as it was in 1978….You’re an Islamist who doesn’t really care about Iran or prosperity of its people as long as you can keep the status quo….Shame on you!
Serendip
I don’t know if you can trust CIA World Factbook but in case regarding the poverty line
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ir&v=69
but it shows that there was an increase from 1996-2002
the fact is that what happened in most developing countries including Iran was a fast modernization by reling mostly on petro-dollars and a huge dependency on foriegn commodities known in economy as dependency theory. The temporay progress during Shah was due to the oil boom of 1960-70 and the social gap among south-northern Tehranis was so extreme that any one confess that Southerners and rural areas enjoy a much better situation now eventhough the country suffers from poverty and economic problems yet which to some extent is to blame sanctions and discrimination of superpowers against Iran. US now want to see the contract between Iran and Sweden. gas agreement