Islam or Islamic Ideology, which one is the problem Mr. Wilders?
Posted by KamangirMar 27
Geert Wilders’s famous video finally found its way to the Internet. The much anticipated 15-minute video carries footage of Islamic leaders cursing the west and its values and advocating for Islam and its ways. The footage gives subtitles for the various languages spoken in it, the Persian parts of which are accurate. I wasn’t able to find any mistake in the Arabic part either.
I am not a Muslim. Having said that, this video is not about Islam. Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, and other schools of thought, does not kill. Nor does it stone, amputate, or circumcise women. All this is carried out by a beast named man, one of whose most developed talents is to find phony justifications for his/her horrible actions.
Mr. Wilders shows us pictures of crimes carried out by Muslims, from the infamous 9/11 attacks to London bombings and executions in Iran and Afghanistan. I do agree with him that not only many Muslims commit disgusting actions these days, but also that the mainstream Islamic world fails in condemning these atrocities. Even worse than that, the average Muslim seems to have sympathy for murderess, or at least they are fast in condemnation when a fellow Muslim is attacked, but seem to forget to be fair when Muslims kill others. Greet Wilders’ video might make this more clear, as if we had any doubt about it, but does not present a solution. At its core, it merely makes racist remarks about the rise of Muslim population in Europe.
It is a fact that the conventional interpretations of Quran and Islam do lead to issuing death Fatwas against non-Muslims. As rational human beings, this is what we need to talk about. Wilder’s presentation, however, mixes up the faith with the actions of human beings and fails in telling us what we don’t know. At the middle of the carnage, we need to sit together, Muslims and non-Muslims, and make it clear that discussion is the only way. This video, and works similar to it, only stir up the fight.
Ironically, the video contradicts itself when at the end it asks for the Islamic ideology to be defeated. If that’s what you are asking for, Mr. Wilders, which I totally agree with you in it, then why offend billions of Muslims? Really, what’s the point of agitating Muslims by that cheesy “tearing Quran apart, oops! no! it was a phone book” scene?
[...] Uhr, 28-03-2008: Kamangir von Arash Abadpour, Iran / Canada: I am not a Muslim. Having said that, this video is not about [...]
[...] در کمانگیر انگلیسی بیشتر بخونید: “اسلام یا ایدئولوژی اسلامی، مشکل شما چیست آقای ویلدرز؟“ [...]
[...] Read the rest of this great post here [...]
Thanks for your analysis, Arash. I honestly don’t have the fortitude to watch Wilder’s film, but I had read that the film did not seem to fulfill it’s intended goals, demonstrating how the Quran is a fascist ‘textbook’.
As for the Islamic leaders who rant therein, one can see the same thing on Memri.
But let me ask you, in your opinion will this video give rise to Islamic rioting in Europe, in the Netherlands? Is this on a par to fundamental Muslims, as the Danish cartoons of Muhammad?
Kamangir: I don’t think so. I have no proof though. I just don’t think it would cause anything.
Okay a fair commentary.
However, do you really find it racist to show a bar graph depicting a populations demograph?
About the page tearing bit, a little fun being poked at the cartoon rage, cheesy, yes.
No compulsion in Islam…. no, no humour in Islam.
It’s true that there’s nothing new in this film. We’ve all seen this images before. But for a Dutch public, it is quite unusual to link the behaviour of Muslim extremists to the Quran. We are told by our politicians that Islam is a religion, just like any other religion and that there are also christian terrorists and that we just need to give the Muslims some time. The purpose of this film is to show a Dutch public that Islam is very different from a religion like Christianity, because Islam is much more than a religion. It’s also a political ideology.
Islam has been a political system from the moment Mohammad became leader of Medina. Mohammad wasn’t just a Prophet, he was also a political and military leader. So basically, what Islamists want, is some kind of Muslim renaissance: going back to the “original” Islam and revive the political dimension of Islam, that has been neglected by the majority of Muslims over time. So all those European politicians who say that Islam is at the moment going trough it’s middle ages and that the Muslim renaissance will be there soon, don’t realise that the radicalisation we are witnessing in countries like Egypt, isn’t the middle ages: it is the renaissance
When Wilders tears a page from the phonebook, he says that it is up to Muslims to tear the violent parts out of the Quran. He didn’t say that they had to destroy their Qurans, he said they had to remove the calls for violence. My interpretation of that is that he doesn’t attack the religion as a whole, but only the political ideology. He didn’t ask Muslims to leave Islam, he asked Muslims to reform it.
Will this movie solve anything? On the long term, maybe it will. While most politicians in Europe kept denying that there is a problem, Wilders shows that Islamism isn’t only a problem in some mountain huts in Pakistan. It is also a major problem in The Netherlands and other European cities. Denying that, isn’t going to solve anything. But this film opened a discussion. A discussion that will force our politicians to investigate the problem of Islamic radicalisation and to come up with real solutions. I don’t think Wilders has any good solutions to the problems we face. I don’t think anyone has those solutions at the moment. But I do hope that the discussion Wilders started, might get people to think about the problems we are facing.
[...] Iranian blogger, shares his idea about Geert Wilders' famous video:”the video contradicts itself when at the end [...]
Archer
It seems you think that this video is not about Islam, but I think it is.
The religion is what some or majority of its believers are thinking and doing in the name of their religion. Religion without believers is empty and it is believers which give religion its hold on life.
Christianity is separated from the state, it was not political ideology in its inception and it is not political ideology nowadays. On the other hand Islam is a religion as well as a political ideology and the way of life.
Wilders quotes Quran and then shows human behaviour flowing out of the literal interpretation of qu’ran.
And that is a problem, it is difficult to discuss and separate religion from everything else when one is talking or discussing Islam or Muslims, when (theoretically) Islam dictates everything, including cultural behaviour and political ideas.
And tell me, Archer, how can we talk together when many Muslims call criticism of anything connected with Islam (and that includes some societal/cultural behaviour) – islamophobia. When even you are saying that this video “This video, and works similar to it, only stir up the fight” and that it “offends Muslims” because at the core it “makes racist remarks about the rise of Muslim population in Europe”
And how is it racist when with the rise of Muslim population in Europe and elsewhere the things Wilders is showing is getting more common – not very common but getting more common .
As for the rise of Muslim population in Europe –
Look at it that way – In Iran there were Afghanis refugees, something like a 2 mln people. “the broad sentiment is that the Afghan refugees pose a significant burden and that it is time for them to go back to Afghanistan. This attitude reflects significant levels of unemployment in Iran, as well as concern over increasing drug smuggling and violence on the border, including the killing of Iranian border security personnel…………… At the same time, though, Afghans continue to provide much-needed labour in agriculture and the construction industry. Afghan refugees themselves readily state that they feel they are no longer welcome in Iran. There is both subtle and overt discrimination, and at times harassment. Opportunities for higher education were closing in 2003. Little or no compensation is paid when workers in the construction sector are killed or disabled in accidents. Informed reports have suggested increased use of drugs to sustain long and hard working days” (quotation from UNRA).
Now Europe does not have so many refugees but many illegal/legal immigrants and children of immigrants, who do not have similar religion and culture as the host countries Did you know that in Greece during January to August 2007 landed 70,000 illegal immigrants, Italy/Spain had over 10,000 illegal immigrants each (the real numbers are probably higher, these are the ones who registered or got caught), . And some of these people do not find jobs or they get jobs but not as good as they expected or they want the continuation of the same style of living they had in their countries.so they blame not themselves but the countries they came to and explain it by discrimination of themselves and persecution of their religion. It is quite complicated but often this blaming of others but not themselves is supported or inflamed by their mullahs and their imams (if they are sunni) quoting Qu’ran and hadiths. .
Religion is what people believe, and if some people believe, quoting Qu’ran, that ” we are better than infidels because we are Muslims” , “we are owed” ” we are discriminated against because we are Muslims like during Mohammad’s life”, “we won’t discuss anything because they are racist/infidels”, ” our religion is under attack” then the problem is not only people but also their religion and some of the tenets of that religion.
In Wilders movie there is nothing new but for many people in Denmark or in UK or in Europe or in Canada some of the things Wilders is saying is a new thing, not discussed before and not mentioned by their politicians or MSM.- nobody told them that Islam is not only religion but also a political ideology.
Kamangir: Ella, I agree with most parts of your comment, but, this video does not add anything to what everyone knew.
Are we talking about the inhabitants of the same world? Have they not seen attacks, bombings, beheadings, …?
I agree that a lot of things are wrong with Islam. But this video is only another thing Muslims will cite as proof for “West hates Muslim”.
Archer
Yes, we are talking about the inhabitants of the same world. Many people think Islam is similar to Christianity i.e. there is separation between Church(religion) and politics.
In Canada what do some politicians tell us? – religion is different, it has nothing to do with what some people are doing.
What some muslim organisations often tell people? – see, it is societal not religious, it does not have basis in Islam. ……….. and the same people want shari’a in Canada. ;-)
Some muslims in Poland when we are discussing things say – these people are “bad” Muslims, some even claim that they are not Muslims at all. . And some of them for their support quote Qu’ran but quote only some of the suras (“forgetting” others), or even part of some suras.
You think some people are living on different planet, but they do not. They are simply not very much interested in finding for themselves “why” and look for simple explanations. They have jobs, children, they are busy so they listen to what politicians or MSM are telling them.
As for “West hates Islam/Muslims”, well, so many muslims claim that Islam is under attack that I think Wilders movie will not make a lot of difference in their view point. If not Wilders movie than there will be something else to back up their beliefs.
On the other hand perhaps people who are “blind” will see what “everyone” else knows.
Kamangir: Ella, I am not a Muslim/Christian/Jew/believer, but do you think there is no “kill them all” in other scriptures?
Interestingly, Arash Abadpour himself demonstrates the very developed talent he is describing, as he is trying to find phony justifications for his own horrible actions.
What horrible actions am I referring to? I am of course thinking about Abadpour’s attempts at shifting the focus away from the actual problem, which is Islam itself, and to the “beast named man”, whose “horrible actions” are in fact logical and natural outcomes of devout adherence to Islam, and not something for which people have to invent after-the-fact justifications, as Abadpour suggests.
In this manner, Abadpour contributes to perpetuating the myth that Islam itself is not the problem, potentially paving the way for more Islamization, which in itself is a horrible action for which, at the end of the day, there should be no justification.
Kamangir: Abdullah, I can’t follow. Do you suggest that I am helping Islam become more powerful? What “horrible action” have I committed?
Since when is Islam a race? Quite a common but mistaken charge levied against anyone who dares criticize or challenge anything Islamic…
Islam is not a race and quoting the Qur’an and showing Muslims speak in their own words, including the President of Iran, can in no way be deemed racist.
Fitna actually did say something we hadn’t heard before. It said the west must stop Islamisation. It didn’t say stop Islam. Stop Muslims. It said stop Islamisation which infers that if Muslims are able and willing to integrate and assimilate into the cultures and countries that welcome them, then there is no issue. In that context, there is more than enough evidence that in countries where Muslim populations are increasing rapidly, including the US, Muslims make little if any attempt to assimilate. Rather, they seek to force other cultures to be more aware of and adopt the Islamic norm.
Of course, non-Muslims aren’t even welcome in Muslim countries but that is never discussed…Muslims want us to respect them but they don’t respect us…imagine if the US or Netherlands did not allow Muslims to bring the Koran into the country ala some Muslim countries…unfortunately Geert was quite right even if his presentation doesn’t appeal to all.
Archer, there is no “kill them all” in New Testament. There are many examples what will happen to the people who sin but there are no calls to “kill them all.”
It is, I think, a little different in the Bible or in Torah, but as far as I know there are also no calls to slaughter of whole people.
After all one of the ten commandments of Christianity is prohibition against killing people – “thou shalt not kill”
And in Judaism “of the 613 commandments, only the prohibitions against murder, idolatry, incest and adultery are so important that they cannot be violated to save a life. Judaism not only permits, but often requires a person to violate the commandments if necessary to save a life”
abdullah shaikh
But Archer is also right.
If people would not take Qu’ran (and particularly hadiths) literaly, there would not be such a big problem nowadays.
You seem to forget that if one really wants to find something to support killing/murders of people one can find something even in New Testament. Of course finding something in NT would be very, very difficult, it would be a great stretch but it would be doable. In the similar vein if one really wants to find things which prohibit killing of infidels, being friends with infidels and so on and so forth, one would be able to do that too.
Archer’s horrible actions??? Are you serious? You seem to forget that Archer is trying hard to think “out of a box”, he is trying as opposing to many people who do not try at all.
Kamangir: Ella, I am not an expert in theology. I am just fed up with people killing others and then citing old books and mystical names. I am fed up with what Wilders does as well. He pretends he is tearing their book apart. I don’t find that helpful at all. Any how, this all makes me more faithful in my fear of organized faith.
ups,
please read…… If one really wants to find things in Qu’ran which prohibit killing of infidels…..
Yes, that’s what I’m suggesting. The “horrible” action in question is the action of shifting the blame from Islam to man himself, instead of pointing out that the hideous actions of Muslims are not something for which they find “justifications” in the Quran because they have developed a talent to find phony justifications for their actions, but actions which are in most cases mandated by their religion, and which are logical and natural consequences of them being devout Muslims. By obscuring this fact and shifting the blame away from Islam, Abadpour in effect becomes an Islam apologist.
Kamangir: Sir, why should I defend Islam when I am not a Muslim? My point is, attacking a religion, which is backed by a billion people, does not lead anywhere. The sort of “Kill them all” mandates, I understand, exist in any religion. What is important, to my understanding, is that the believers should realize that some of the things in their “holy” books are just meant to be read and not acted upon.
No, there would not be such a big problems, but what does it actually mean when “people [do] not take Qu’ran (and particularly hadiths) literaly”? Well, it simply means that those people are not Muslims.
Kamangir: No it means coming up with a narration of Islam which is peaceful and respects others’ way of living.
AS
I am definitely not expert in theology and, in fact, I do not like theology, any theology, but I do not think that not taking hadiths literaly means one is not Muslim. Hadiths are not Qu’ran although majority now say that hadiths are as important as Qu’ran. And why they as as important as Qu’ran? it is just a tradition., people claimed that. Furthermore there is a historical trend of following later verses of qu’ran instead of following earlier verses of Qu’ran.
But all these people, scholars, are human. Perhaps they are wrong.
Just my thoughts.
Kamangir: I agree.
there is much discussion to be had, but none of it will be useful in a climate of fear and appeasement. the appeasers no more want to make life better for muslims then neville chamerlain wanted to help the czech’s.
Wilders did nothing more than hold up a mirror to Muhammad’s Islam. As there are Muslims of all races, there is nothing racist about it. Islam, like any other ideology, can be discussed freely. If not, then it only proves the totalitarian nature of Islam.
[...] like my friend Kamangir the Archer – the most visible moderate Iranian I know – who rationally opposes Wilder’s [...]
There is NO “killing them all” in new testament of Christian bible.Absolutely none! not even in Buddha’s teaching…I have read them both and there is nothing mentioning to “kill all non believers”..
You writes,”It is a fact that the conventional interpretations of Quran and Islam do lead to issuing death Fatwas against non-Muslims.”
what do you mean “conventional”…how do you interpret those verses that talks about killing of non muslims?? Prophet Mohammed was involved in 27 battles during his lifetime? He has witnessed killing and murder…Most of his life tried to convert his own tribe Quriesh by force …
Modern Muslims have to face these challenges and instead of saying “oh..other religions have done that too” , they have to confront these issues more honestly.
http://www.mediafire.com/?exdmgttztsf
Download and watch without letting choose how you feel about it.
It should always be your choice….not the choice of the loudest idiot.
Good, but Muslims are not a ‘race’. Millions and millions are quiting Islam every year; in Africa 16,000 leave Islam everyday, according to Faithfreedom.org.
http://faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.html
For Muslims reading this, be brave! You also can leave Islam. Be a brave apostate!
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
Youtube & Google Video have put ‘Fitna’ up. See the link at the bottom.
GO Mr. Wilders! Great job! Short and to the point, very powerful!
It will be interesting to see how many Dhimmi politicians will watch this. Eventually, most probably will.
SPREAD THE WORD to the world everyone!
All freedom starts with freedom of speech. If there is no freedom of speech, there will be no freedom. The Christians and Jews don’t riot when somebody makes fun of Christ or Jews. People must learn to be civilized. Rioting MUST not be tolerated.
That’ll be great if there’s not much rioting, how very mature that would be. Geert Wilders is a hero spreading the painful truth. He MUST be protected!
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
weak and insecure is BEST
the best way for religion
KILL those who question it
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe wants
Islam for everyone
submit to glorious life
slavery and servitude
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
outlaw self-defense
exposing violent crimes
shall be deemed hate speech
.
http://www.themoviefitna.com/?p=52
http://absurdthoughtsaboutgod.blogspot.com/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://haltterrorism.com/
:)
.
Comerciantes holandeses eigirán responsabilidad a…
Dhimmi Watch: Dutch businesses threaten to sue Wilders over”Fitna”:
“Dutch businesses Saturday threatened to sue far-right lawmaker Geert Wilders if his anti-Islam film led to a commercial boycott, as several more Muslim countries condemned i…
Geert Wilders’ short film Fitna. Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Fitna, we see the following:
Fitna is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all-encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology. The term originally referred to the refining of metal to remove dross [1], but became common in apocalyptic writings and is often used to refer to the First Islamic civil war, in 656–661 CE, a prolonged struggle for the caliphate after the 656 assassination of the caliph Uthman ibn Affan. The Second Fitna, or Second Islamic civil war, is usually identified as the 683–685 CE conflict among the Umayyads for control of the caliphate. The third one refers to the taifas in the end of the Caliph of Córdoba’s rule.
This is a meaning beyond simple trial or test, and hits straight to the heart of the problem in trying to apologize or veer off from confronting a religion that puts violent ideas and ideals into action. Within Islam, then, those that utilize violent ways and means are practicing something beyond jihad: they are practicing Fitna upon their fellow Muslims.
They do so by radicalizing their views and holding ahistoric views of their religious past in order to glorify it beyond all bounds of reason. When brought to an unreasoning and unreasonable height, one that cannot be touched by reason but only by passion, those seeking to cleans Islam of those who are considered ‘moderates’ is done by instilling fear and hatred of all of Islam. Their aim is global domination, but to get the foot soldiers to accomplish this they need to go beyond simple disdain or verbal neutrality of their fellow believers. To do that they attack those outside the religion and proclaim them all as the enemy of Islam if they will not come to it.
Every time we hear an excuse to act in a barbaric fashion and it is put into terms of someone else’s fault, be it Israel, Arab Nations hosting Western groups, or even some ancient grievance against the Crusades we see Fitna at work. By not denouncing these things as unreasonable, by giving cover to acts of inhuman carnage Islam is not only speaking to those outside of it but is holding up a mirror to itself and letting those who do NOT actively support the violence and destruction: “This…
http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2008/03/fitna-clea...
Geert Wilders’ short film Fitna. Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Fitna, we see the following:
Fitna is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all-encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology. The term originally referred to the refining of metal to remove dross [1], but became common in apocalyptic writings and is often used to refer to the First Islamic civil war, in 656–661 CE, a prolonged struggle for the caliphate after the 656 assassination of the caliph Uthman ibn Affan. The Second Fitna, or Second Islamic civil war, is usually identified as the 683–685 CE conflict among the Umayyads for control of the caliphate. The third one refers to the taifas in the end of the Caliph of Córdoba’s rule.
This is a meaning beyond simple trial or test, and hits straight to the heart of the problem in trying to apologize or veer off from confronting a religion that puts violent ideas and ideals into action. Within Islam, then, those that utilize violent ways and means are practicing something beyond jihad: they are practicing Fitna upon their fellow Muslims.
They do so by radicalizing their views and holding ahistoric views of their religious past in order to glorify it beyond all bounds of reason. When brought to an unreasoning and unreasonable height, one that cannot be touched by reason but only by passion, those seeking to cleans Islam of those who are considered ‘moderates’ is done by instilling fear and hatred of all of Islam. Their aim is global domination, but to get the foot soldiers to accomplish this they need to go beyond simple disdain or verbal neutrality of their fellow believers. To do that they attack those outside the religion and proclaim them all as the enemy of Islam if they will not come to it.
http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2008/03/fitna-clea...
I’m glad this was released and have had the chance to watch it. I can’t say that it’s the best short film I’ve ever seen, but it does make many good points. I didn’t see this film as anti-Islam so much as anti-Islamist. Since Muslim extremists justify their barbarism from the Qur’an I believe the verses used in this film are legitimate points to raise.
This doesn’t say much about the religion itself, after all the Bible has some hair-raising verses as well, but it does in how it’s practiced by many. All in all though, I really don’t care if anyone is offended. I’m offended by many Muslims who use their faith to justify this savagery, excuse it or simply ignore it. Silence by moderate muslim against killing Theo Van Gogh or other vile and barbaric action by the muslims extremist tantamounts to complicity. When was a last time moderate muslims protested the militant and extremist views of Islamic Republic in the U.S.????
Turn your religion into an evil ideology and you can expect a negative reaction. Those who are Muslim and do not believe as the Islamists do have the unfortunate responsibility to turn this around. It may seem unfair but frankly TFB. If Christians were doing likewise you’d better believe I’d be holding their feet to the fire. Yet unlike Islam, Christianity went through the Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Enlightenment, etc. It’s time that Islam faces the same
Serendeip
Do you know where these two major terrorist Islamic groups i.e. Alqaeda and Taliban come from?
Al Qaeda’s ideology is based on Wahhabism (also known as Salafism), named after Muhammad ibn al Wahhab (1703-1792). Wahhabis differ from traditional Sunnis in that they believe in the literal interpretation of the words of the prophet Mohammad. They are extremely puritanical and legalistic in matters of faith and religious practice. They believe such things as music, photographs, annual feasts, etc to be contrary to Islam. They do not accept any other branches of Islam and consider them heretics and killing them is not considered a sin.
Until the rise of House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism was a very small sect and was rejected by many scholars in Sunni world. The religion of the House of Saud is Wahabism. When in 1924-1925, Ibn Saud with the help of the British defeated Hashemite (another tribe in Arabia) and captured Mecca, Wahhabism became the official religion of Arabia, or what is now called Saudi Arabia (named after Ibn Saud).
The House of Saud’s relationship with Wahhabis is symbiotic. The rulers rely on the religious establishment for legitimacy and support, while the religious establishment relies on the government for maintaining and spreading its ideology. Each feeds and supports the other. But there is a problem. As long as these people were fighting the infidels outside the Arabia, they represented no danger to the government. But now they have evolved and become something that poses a danger to the very people that were aiding it. Now Saudi Arabia has become a Wahhabi state that both supports and fight fights extremists.
Buy we see that there is a very good relation between US and Saudies???
Mani,
Rather a cliche viewpoint. Have you done some alternative reading. You’ll find that most of these groups were established by Western intelligence agencies to infiltrate, destabilize certain Muslim countries, or justify an outright attack by the West—-21st century Crusade if you will, using Islamic fundamentalists as the filth Column (misspelling intended) :
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_02_12/article4.html
http://www.payvand.com/news/06/mar/1090.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2846b_lewis_profile.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/alam06282003.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg
Early cooperation of the mullah’s and US intelligence:
http://www.chris-floyd.com/iran/index2.htm
Or maybe you thought illiterate mullahs with no real political organization, or experience just happened to over throw one of the most powerful intelligence organizations in the Third World, namely SAVAK, and the Shah’s considerable security apparatus, then after this enormous feat, then slowly one by one eliminated all their other political rivals in Iran, such as the constitutional republican parties, the Tudeh and so on————because if you do believe such fair tales, you can come and sit on my lap and I’ll tell you some more.
Are you operating a screening of comments on this sight, because my comments aren’t getting through?
Kamangir: I do apologize for the delay. Comments which contain more than one or two hyperlinks are not published instantly, in order to fight spam.
OK its working.
Mani
Rather a cliche perspective of international Islamic terrorism, especially coming from an educated person. There are alternative explanations of their roots, and one should at least consider, if not accept them, in order to explain the critical situation in and around Iran:
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_02_12/article4.html
http://www.payvand.com/news/06/mar/1090.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2846b_lewis_profile.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/alam06282003.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg
Early cooperation of the mullah’s and US intelligence:
http://www.chris-floyd.com/iran/index2.htm
You are not going to tell me that a group of largely illiterate mullahs, with no real political organization, or experience in exercising real state power, some how overthrew and over whelmed the Shah’s regime, and SAVAK just like that on their first attempt! and his other security systems such as the armed forces and paramilitary forces etc,……….AND after, one by one eliminated all other political opponents including the constitutional Republicans and the Tudeh alliance by them selves. If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you!
In relation to the article/blog in point and the wider issue. Obviously Jews are doing a propaganda drive, with the help of elements of the Far Right in Europe (which I always thought was manipulated by the Jews themselves traditionally to scare and keep in line the Jew masses) The Mohammed cartoon episode was initiated by a Mossad agent by the name of Fleming Rose, working for the Danish newspaper from the far right, and accepted as OK from the right wing government of Denmark—-Fleming Rose is a psuedynim——actually an Ukrainian Jew:
http://petras.lahaine.org/articulo.php?c=1&more=1&p=9
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/85897
The French Arab riots on the surface looks like crazy Arabs going on the rampage, but a closer investigation looks like the right wing French Mossad agent, Nicholas SARKOZY as interior minister staged highly provocative action calculated to incite Arabs. Look it up people……………
The Dutch saga looks like more Mossad activity to give Muslims a bad name to justify Israeli inhuman activity against the Palestinians, in collusion with Right Wing elements in Europe:
http://judicial-inc.biz/van_gogh_murder.htm
It is quite simple people.
Mani
Rather a cliche perspective of international Islamic terrorism, especially coming from an educated person. There are alternative explanations of their roots, and one should at least consider, if not accept them, in order to explain the critical situation in and around Iran:
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_02_12/article4.html
http://www.payvand.com/news/06/mar/1090.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2846b_lewis_profile.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/alam06282003.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg
Early cooperation of the mullah’s and US intelligence:
http://www.chris-floyd.com/iran/index2.htm
You are not going to tell me that a group of largely illiterate mullahs, with no real political organization, or experience in exercising real state power, some how overthrew and over whelmed the Shah’s regime, and SAVAK just like that on their first attempt! and his other security systems such as the armed forces and paramilitary forces etc,……….AND after, one by one eliminated all other political opponents including the constitutional Republicans and the Tudeh alliance by them selves. If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you!
In relation to the article/blog in point and the wider issue. Obviously Jews are doing a propaganda drive, with the help of elements of the Far Right in Europe (which I always thought was manipulated by the Jews themselves traditionally to scare and keep in line the Jew masses) The Mohammed cartoon episode was initiated by a Mossad agent by the name of Fleming Rose, working for the Danish newspaper from the far right, and accepted as OK from the right wing government of Denmark—-Fleming Rose is a psuedynim——actually an Ukrainian Jew:
http://petras.lahaine.org/articulo.php?c=1&more=1&p=9
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/85897
The French Arab riots on the surface looks like crazy Arabs going on the rampage, but a closer investigation looks like the right wing French Mossad agent, Nicholas SARKOZY as interior minister staged highly provocative action calculated to incite Arabs. Look it up people……………
The Dutch saga looks like more Mossad activity to give Muslims a bad name to justify Israeli inhuman activity against the Palestinians, in collusion with Right Wing elements in Europe:
http://judicial-inc.biz/van_gogh_murder.htm
It is quite simple people.
muslims are the most crazed conspiracy theorists I’ve ever seen. I love how all the conspiracy theories though in the end make the muslims immensely incompetent, bordering on childish and mentally challenged and raise the jews up to super human manipulative capabilities.
Mostaque A Al – Do you spend your whole life watching out behind you? Are you afraid there is a Jew behind every tree?
You have my sympathies, maybe you should seek treatment.
Islam and people who actually follow Islam and are not hypocrits that use the label for Satanic practices are different than the Zionist Agenda wants you to believe.
Let’s see the Zionist Agenda through the Eyes of an American Christian Veteran:
http://www.prothink.org
Also, Islam itself denounces any tribal culture like female circumcision, wife beating, honor killings, grave worshipping, and other PRE-ISLAMIC Arabian, Persian, Turkish, Indian, etc. superstitions. Islam is a religion of reason and the same religion of THE ONE GOD of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.
The Quran is the Final Testament and it’s prophet the Final Prophet.
Here is an invitation to the truth:
http://www.harunyahya.com
http://www.riseofislam.com
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com
http://www.zaytuna.org
http://www.cair.com
The British Imperial Colonialists promoted the myth of Pre-Islamic glory in the Islamic Empires of the Ottomans, Safavids, and Mughals because they were the only areas that resisted THE BRITISH IMPERIALS.
There is a book called THE MEMOIRS OF HEMPHER: CONFESSIONS OF A BRITISH SPY that point out the tactics used in the past 300 years to use fake British Muslims to destroy Islam from within and throw Sunni vs. Shia against each other. ie. British Saudi Wahabis, Deobandis, Salafis, Bahais, Mormons, Druze, etc.
Google it if you think you are a real intellectual. As an American I can say that the west knows how to create propoganda really well. This propoganda has existed since the Crusades when Saladin was demonized as a devil with horns! LOL
The American guy above actually has a brain and is not a paid member of the Corporate Zionist Party like the people who post against Iran and Muslims in general. My type of Iranian-Americans, Iranians, and Americans are increasing in numbers daily. We are waking up to the BS fed to us by the Corporate Zionist Media. The Iranian TV in Los Angeles are nothing but paid stooges of Israel and it’s allies. I actually checked out that website http://www.prothink.org above and was very impressed by it, but I suggest checking this website as well: http://www.jewwatch.com
“Wahhabis differ from traditional Sunnis in that they believe in the literal interpretation of the words of the prophet Mohammad. They are extremely puritanical and legalistic in matters of faith and religious practice.”
Mani you are wrong.
Literal interpretation of the words of the prophet Muhammad is normal for all muslims.
Wahabis (aka salafis) are in truth more puritanical than other schools of Islam, however as regards to legalistic – majority of 4 sunni schools of islam are legalistic and so are shi’a mullahs.