On Discrimination in the US and in Iran
By Kamangir • Mar 31st, 2008 • Category: Features, Human Rights, Iran, Lead Story, Video of the Day
The sign reads, “No service to people with loose veil, not even to our old customers”. This sign I wish was rare in Iran, but it isn’t. The fact is, there are stickers which carry the same message and are printed by the Police. These stickers are widely used all over Iran and their use has been mandated by the Police in many instances. You may also remember the hospital which mandated the veil as the condition for service to patients.
The following video is rather old. At the first sight, it might seem to be providing proof that discrimination does exist widely in the US. Watching the video till the end, however, my catch was that discrimination does exist over there, as it exists in every corner of the world, but with the heartwarming observation that ordinary people oppose to it and choose to boycott the offender. Whereas, in Iran, discrimination is a daily practice prescribed by the government and followed by the nation. At best, the Iranian nation is ignorant, and that’s when you do not take into consideration the fact that discriminatory judgments have become a part of the Iranian moral code: “women with loose veil are perverts”. Similar observation can be made regarding judgments against people with different sexual orientations, minority religious groups, etc.
My conclusion is, when left alone to decide for themselves, people everywhere in the world are for justice and peace. Propaganda and political agenda, however, agitate people and turn them into discriminators, for obvious goals of the leading gang.
I literally cried, wishing my country was like this.
Posted by Kamangir
Author's email address: arash@kamangir.net | All posts by Kamangir
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Arash,
As I have told before the descrimination over females in Iran or whatever we call it is not only a state policy but something that roots in people’s mentality. I interviewd around 60 people in Iran for my research and was surperised when I realised most housewives , families and elderly peopel are not happy about younger people walking hand in hand or women with what so called “loosly veil”. We can not only blame the government but aslo people who still need more time to understand that no one can make decision for persoanl aspects of others such as apperiance, hair style or dress. Nevertheles I also should mention that women’s make up and their sexual gestures are stronger in Tehran compare to Western countries eventhough their dress is less revealing!! :)))))
and I am happy that now you are looking at issues from diferent perspectives.
Thanks
Archer
Your link to AFP story does not work: “The article you requested is not available”, says AFP. However there are other links that work . Here is one:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080328/wl_sthasia_afp/netherlandsislamfilmpolitics
How can film be a “deliberate act of discrimination” as proclaimed by OIC? I mean a movie can be called shocking or an incitement for hatred but an act of discrimination? I think that some people need to go and see dictionary for a definition of an “act of discrimination” before they try to put together a couple of descriptive words.
Kamangir: Thanks Ella.
Mani
About “sexual gestures which are stronger in Tehran than in Western countries”
I don’t know about sexual gestures, but I do know that many Iranian women use much stronger make-up than women in some western countries. But that is just a reaction to the fact that use of make-up is frowned upon by authorities, it is a kind of rebellion. If women were allowed freely to use make up they probably would not put on such a strong make-up.
Kamangir: I would add that it is also a reaction to the notion that women should not exhibit their physical attractiveness. I think this has led to them pushing harder to define their identity through excessive use of make-up.
Aghaye Kamangir- I generally try to avoid your blogs and postings, but this time a good friend directed me this way and I can’t help but comment. More than 2/3 of the people in the video either did NOTHING (silent consent) or gave thumbs up. And what were the instances of people speaking out, the father of the soldier who still falls into this stupid reasoning that if you are for war or participating in the war then you are a “good” american, and the two young women, one of whom was a Muslim for God’s sake.
This is terrifying to me, and it should be to you, but apparently in your black and white world, everything that comes from Iran is worthy of contempt and derision, but everything North American must be praised and looked at from the best possible angle.
Look, you do plenty on a daily basis to prove that you are sufficiently contemptuous of Iran and grateful to western liberal values, so why don’t you take a break once in a while, ok?
Kamangir: Niki Jan, it is quite unfortunate that my posts have hurt your feelings. I wholeheartedly apologize. As of the numbers, would you elaborate more on the similar numbers you would expect to see in Iran? How many people do you think have argued for unveiled women’s right to shop?
Arash,
I am sure if you put a secret camera in a shop and ask the shopkeeper (in agreement) to say for instances to some women I won’t sell you anything because of your hijab, there would be defenitly reactions by people as is evident even in risky situations when poeple in the streets react toward police squads. There was one in Mashad when people started fighting with police and many other occasions across the Tehran squares. but the fact is any kind of descrimination either because of wearing hijab like in France or not wearing it like in Iran is stupid.
Kamangir: Mani Jan, I agree with the second part, but as of the first part, my understanding is that the average Iranian is not aware of his/her rights as a human being.
Arash,
That needs time and I would say during this three decades of the Revolution , people especially youths and women has found much more consiousness about their rights and their potentials. During the election of Khatami in one of the remotest villages of Isfahan you could see elderly people sharing ideas of why they want to vote to Khatami and at the end of the day I think veil is not the only indicator for being modern or developed. There are women in Tehran with loosely veil who don’t have much understanding of the world around them and there are women who look very traditional but think more ahead and are more open minded and modern.
What do you think the result of a survey would be if we could place a hidden camera in a cafeshop in the north of Tehran and if the clerk would insult an acress blonde fair skin blue-eyed girl who seems so inocent when hears: hey you, we don’t serve you because you look like yankies?
Do you think all other customers keep quiet?
and another point. this comparison is a bit tricky. In Iran having or not having hijab stands rather for a kind of life style i.e. more religious or Western. In the second case however veil stands more as an ideologic symbol. May be if we replace for instance ethnic background for the first case i.e a shop which doesn’t sell stuff to Azeris or Afghanis then it is a better comparison and I am sure no shopkeeper would dare to say I don’t sell you because you are Afghani in Iran. Even though ethnic dicrimination is also a problem that need to be addressed by scholars and people in Iran.
[...] به انساندوستی Ùˆ اومانيسم آمريکايی Ù¾ÛŒ Ù…ÛŒ برد Ùˆ های های اشک Ù…ÛŒ ريزد.دليل اين نگاه متÙاوت جناب کمانگير چيست؟ بعله، آقای [...]
Niki’s comments are amusing. Switch Iran with U.S. and we have ourself a self-loathing liberal.
Discrimination in a system like Iran is derived from a theoretical background in which discrimination is not even considered a bad thing in many cases. In a theocratical interpretation of Iranian system there should even be stricter discrimination implemented that is, for example quite a number of religious names do not approve of the level of ideologically derived discriminations practiced by the system i.e the example you focused on in this post; the hejab. On the other hand, like it or not discriminatory ideology is a part of Iranian everyday culture and is manifested in typical average Iranian mentality and it is not only because of the political system e.g see how we would easily jump on very loaded judgements about other people or how we categorise people base on nationalities, colour, region, religion, language, dialect, and social class on individual basis. Thus, a part from the political religious ideology which theoretically jusfies discrimination, the relationship of the society and the system is a two-way cause and because cycle.
Acknowledging the fact that there is discrimination systematically or socially in another or context doesnt mean that we should accept any level of discrimination in another context. America for that matter is not even a good example of nondiscriminatory practices…..
majid
I want to also add to Majid comment that considering that wearing Hijab is a part of cultural practice of the Iranian society over centuries, comparing it with a different context with different values and cultural background has the danger of simplifying the problem. I.e when it comes to the issue of female discrimination it should be seen over major aspects such as marriage, education, work, relations in the family and so on not simply Hijab.
I.e. which of these : freedom of individuals, racism, extreme nationalism or discrimination is the focal point of this post?
Moreover most these shops put such signs not becasue they practically willing to do it but simply because they are requested or just want to minimize their risk.
I don’t see how there’s a comparison at all. in one place some people might sneer at you for wearing something out of ignorance or prejudice. in another the police may arrest and beat you for wearing something. how is this equivalent? freedom isn’t freedom from other ppl’s opinions.
Kamangir: Would you elaborate more, please?
Wearing Hijab in Iran is part of cultural practice of Iranian society, therefore others/foreigners must wear hijab in Iran
Wearing hijab is not a part of cultural practice of Western society, therefore others/foreigners must be allowed to wear hijab in the West.
no one in France can wear religious symbols in schools or working in goverment offices so how is it a discrimination when christians can not wear cross, jews can not wear head cover and muslims can not wear hijab - it is targetted against all religion so if we are taking about discrimination it is discrimination against all realigion and not against one of them.
“In Iran having or not having hijab stands rather for a kind of life style i.e. more religious or Western. and better if we replace it with ethnic background.”
Muslim are a race according to many so why is it when women wearing hijab are treated badly in the West then people call it racism but when christians do not want to wear hijab in Iran but government make them wear hijab you do not call it racism?
If muslims are race so are christians - therefore - the government of Iran is prescribing institutionalized racism and majority of Iranians do not protest against institutionalized racism.
The equivalent of wearing hijab in the west is not wearing hijab in Iran.
Parvaneh, what would be Iranian’s reaction to woman who wanted to shop not wearing hijab, not in Tehran but in some small town? Or in Qom?
Ideological symbols - I heard somewhere that not wearing a tie was ideological symbol, wearing a loose veil is ideological symbol and wearing hijab in the west is ideological symbol.
However wearing or not wearing veil in Iran is also connected to discrimination of women because women want to have a free choice - to wear or not to wear.
As for historical background of the veil, is it not strange that many women in Persia in 17/18 century did not wear veil?
I read the article, watched the video and read all comments so it is fair for me to come up with this conclusion that:
1- Discrimination against woman, some ethnic group and religious minority in Iran is state sanctioned, has been legislated to form a civic law which is being strictly enforced by armed police personnel.
2- Sporadic discrimination in the west (US for me) committed by few individuals is not sanctioned by governments and vastly condemned by the society if discovered or witnessed and in extreme cases the perpetrators could actually be incarcerated, prosecuted and punished.
@ Mani
Niroo Havaei ??
I think Motori’s conclusion is reasonable.
I have a question for the Iranians on the Blog -
Would it be possible for a television station in Iran to conduct such an experiment?
And assuming some of the results were as bad as on this video (like the guy with the thumbs up), would it be aired on Iranian TV?
Thanks,
Robby
Kamangir: On an issue like the veil, not at all. It is out of question. Other less sensitive issues, maybe.
سلام ! یه سوال! چرا دیگه تو دنباله نیستید؟
کمانگیر: عزیز بالاترین هم Ùرصت نمی کنم سر بزنم.
I do not care about 6 and even about 13.
22. More than half. I was hoping we are better than that. Will this shit ever die?
“When they came there was no one to stand up for me”. (Do not remember who)
Robby,
I am not sure about such specific show but there was a program called “Koole poshti” and the executer of that program was criticizing police chief “sardar Radan” who was in charge of that stupid program called “scoial security”.
oh and there is a new comic cerrial called “marde hezar chehre”- ” a man with one thousand masks” that makes fun of police officers and corrupted employees in Iran. I havn’t seen it since I am not in Iran at the moment but as far as I heard it is a surperise for people that state allow such programs to be made. This is a good sign and police co-operated a lot in making this program.
This is a link but in Persian
http://mmoeeni.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_2542.html
How far they can go? Will they be able to make fun of that police chief in Teheran that got caught with prostitutes?
I hope you are right Mani, that it is a good sign.
Not sure Robby but you should watch “Lizzard” or in Persian marmoolak movie. It is so fun. It was on for a week and then they removed it from cinemas. I had a chance to watch it in Tabriz.If you be familiar with the context you’ll piss ur pant laughing !! :))))
http://irantranslated.blog-city.com/marmoolak__a_movie_review.htm
Mani
Allow me be to be a “devil advocate”. ;-)
Making fun of corrupted employees in Iran is what Archer called “less sensitive” issue. Everybody knows that there is corruption in government offices, everybody knows someone who knows someone who is corrupted. In fact corruption is ingrained in Iranian life. Making fun of governmental employees has been long lived tradition, There are movies about corruption and under Khatami there were even movies making fun of mullahs.
Ahmadinejad has been talking about corrupted employees, about the need to get rid of corruption. So talking about corruption in government offices is not prohibited, it is allowed.
However there is making fun and there is making fun. There are some red lines which can not be crossed
Talking about corruption in government offices may be allowed but talking about corruption in pasdaran or among basiji would be prohibited.
And unfortunately there are more red lines now then there were couple of years ago.
Marmulak has been made under Khatami. In my opinion it is THE BEST IRANIAN COMEDY.
Admittedly, it is good if one is not Iranian to have an Iranian friend or acquaintance to explain some of the scenes…….
well ella, I guess every country has some red lines however with diferent scopes and forms. In US there is veto so the prisedent can veto the congress if he feels it is necessary. When in comes to the socio-political stability there are red lines. Iran deals with many problems but at least it is much more stable than Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. we don’t want to become another Iraq.
Motori,
No I am not in niroo havei
cheers
“Iran is more stable than Pakistan Afghanistan and Iraq. We don’t want to become another Iraq”
Yup, you want to become Saudi Arabia, shia version.
As for socio-political stability and red lines - there is a thingy called homeostasis. Tip the system too much one way and you get metastasis or too much change , tip another and you get stagnation or not enough change.
Both lead to death.
ella: LOL, you’ve got Mani figured out pretty well…His arguments are nothing but sophistry and devoid of truth and realties…he is here to spread disinformation…there are so many of them out there….It’s incredible….
ella
“Saudi Arabia, shia version”, this is bull shit and you know that! I don’t want even to waste my time discussing it.
and serendip what is disinformation : saying that Bush have the right to veto the congress?
or saying Iran is more stable than Pa, Af and Iraq?
Iran will change and we all know that but we don’t need any help from Mr.Bush, he can go and fix his housing market problems.
Mani
It is not a bullshit, Iran is aspiring to a leadership of muslim world just like KSA does. The problem of leadership was already seen during Khomeini rule when there was much talk about As Saud (illegal) stewardship over holy cities.
As for fixing problems, don’t you think that instead of looking at housing market problems in USA you should look first to resolve housing market problems in Iran After all everybody have heard about Mr. A promises to alleviate lack of homes/apartments for young people but hardly anybody seen any results.
I reat again in whatever form, you can not say Iran is a Shia version of Saudi Arabia, a country where there was no cinema some years ago while Iran film Industry is called the Hollywood of the Middle east, where women can not drive in cities while in Iran there are women Bus and Taxi drivers and fire fighters, Saudi where they still behead the criminals while in Iran, Shahroodi ordered some stoning to stop, Saudi where the major terrorist extrimists i.e. Alqaeda and Taliban get support.
and I repeat again Mr.Bush can go and fix his problem not ours. I didn’t look at US problems to solve them I said we have problems including all those you said but we will fix them ourselves. We don’t need any big mamma to feel sympathy for us and show the brutality of the regime just to convince other leaders to join US for another Iraqi style mission.
Mani
I did not wrote Iran is a shia version of KSA, I wrote your religious authorities would like Iran to be like that.
As for Shahroudi he did not ordered some stoning to stop he said he wanted moratorium on stoning. Nevertheless there was some stoning done after he announced his moratorium and some ayatollahs want stoning to continue to be done in public.
As for sympathy…..you do not want people to feel sympathy for you, you won’t get any from me, as per your request. Only do not complain later that people do not understand you, are not sympathetic towards you and do not want to know anything about you.
When the ehad of judicary in a country who is an Ayatollah dare to question such clear Islamic rule and orders to stop it you should start thinking that this country is not a telologic religious country as it used to be trhee decades ago and as media still want to project it that way.
as for sympathy it is the intention that is matter and I didn’t mean you or other people but the political leaders who pretend that they care about democracy in the Middle east. There are pictures of Ramsfeld shaking hand with Sadam Hussein
http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003/02/rumsfeld-saddam.jpgmid.jpg
Saddam was not a dictator as long as he was serving Americans but became a mad killer when he broke the rule of the game.
mani again revels in the most crassly unintelligent thinking possible. we shook hands with kim jong il too, we still hate him. are you so desperately uneducated that the idea of diplomacy and foreign policy escapes you?
oh yea, but you probabely don’t give weapons to kim jong il or may be you do if it was necessary!
Mani
The Interior Minister Prince Naif himself said yesterday (06.04.2008) that human rights are protected in the Kingdom thanks to the implementation of Shariah. Different executive and supervisory government agencies implement regulations that take care of the rights of the accused at the time of arrest, investigation, trial and execution of punishment, these agencies worked perfectly well when the General Investigation and Prosecution Board has closed the case of a Saudi teenager who was accused of raping an Indonesian maid and impregnating her citing “lack of evidence” The same agencies also took care of the rights of number of maids who had been beaten to death, raped and abused by their employers in KSA.
However
before you claim IRI superiority over KSA you should look closely at your own police and regulatory agencies to see the attention given to the rights of the accused at the time of arrest and investigation . Like last year when a girl committed suicide in police custody by using a banner which was hanging on the corridor outside of her cell.
Nevertheless, IRI judiciary system is better than KSA, barely.
USA and Saddam….. why USA should have preferred Khomeini to Saddam when just after revolution islamic students broke into US embassy and Khomeini did nothing to stop them? No-one in Iraq broke into USA embassy.
Of course politics being what it is situation did change when Saddam attacked Kuwait.
BTW tell me Mani why IRI supports Cuba, now?
Ella
Simple, there is a super power called US which wants to control the world. When people of one country got sick of their King and overthrown him, US used all its efforts to change the new regime by any possible ways afterward, from imposing the war, to sanctions and also supporing so called “velvet revolution” . This in fact strenghen the conspiracy theory of Ayattollahs and is in favor of conservatives rather than reformists.
Now when there are only rare countries left in the world which still resists the hegmony of neo-liberal ideas and what is at the end of the day about money and consumer culture +some good things such as civil rights and democracy , who else can be Iran’s allies. Arabs?
US already is sclating the Shiat-Sunni conflict to sell billions of weapons to them by creating an Irano-phobia in the region as it does for North Korea. Why we can’t have a middle east united like Europian united or Asian pacific. Because US is aware of the role and superiority of Iran in the near future and this is not good for its control of Arabs including their oil and market. As I said when oil’s price goes up it is actually good for US economy but not good for Europe.
So my request from US is we know that Iranian society need to acheive its democracy but this democracy need to be constructed from within not imposed from outside. This is even when we assume , that externally imposed democracy is for good and not for benefits of those who invent it.
So my message to Mr.Bush, please do not support any reformists, any student activists, any women activists in Iran because this only restrict their action and provide more excuse for conservatives. Leave us alone.
As for KSA judicary system you may find rare cases such as those but the reality is that you can neglect the beheading of criminals, lack of id cards for women some years ago, restriction for their vote and driving, and the monarchy system itself which is stupid but who cares , they give US oil and buy their weapons so who gives a shit what is going on iside their countries as is the case for Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey etc.
yah and maybe we didn’t help the soviets in wwII. oh no we’re evil! we helped stalin!
I love this “iranophobia” its awesome how the dishonest arguing tactic of accusing the other side of having a mental illness has spread so readily. and its even MORE funny that it originated with homophobia which btw islam and iran both murder gays! is this kind of irony proof god exists? I’ll let you decide.
Bob,
I didn’t understand what you mean exactly but watch this clip instead, just as a piece of art, not the content, it has a nice graphic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM1zULp-26E&feature=related
“Simple, there is a super power called US which wants to control the world.”
Mani, apart from the US wishes to control the world what other kind of conspiracy theories you subscribe to?
Yup, there is islamophobia, russophobia, now it seems there is iranophobia….I will add to this: democracyphobia in IRI, christianophobia in majority of muslim nations and neoconphobia in europe.
What this world come to…………. phobias, phobias everywhere.
Ahh, and suni-shia conflict…..look at your history, mani, and tell me about the historic background of Ashura.
As for the rest - Bush does not read this blog neither I think does Khamenei. If they did I would have some messages for your leader, but they don’t so I won’t bother. ;-)
Ella
US and its media is thretening Iran day and night for possible bombing and war and attack so I can’t call it phobia, it is real but to be honest people in Iran don’t care much and live their ordinary life but I am not sure what the media is telling the public in Europe and US about the threat of Iran! third world war, nuclear disaster, dangerous regime and some other shit
Iran haven’t invade any country at long as I remeber within the last 5 centuries at least but who is travelling to Arab countries to make a beast out of Iran so to convince them to buy their outdated weapons 16 billions to Saudis , 4 Billions to Bahrain ………
mani why do you insist on sending me your brainless propaganda and ignoring entirely the substance of almost all of my posts. it is frustrating to argue with someone so thoroughly unintelligent.
Bob,
Hello, we are talking about post-cold war honney!
and I answered some part of your discussion with Ella.
US and its media is thretening Iran day and night for possible bombing and war
Ah, but IRI and its media threaten US and sometimes the West with death day and night. Don’t know exactly how IRI wants to put “Amrika to death” but I guess IRI made already first step (or perhaps it is the last one) According to Reuters info on April 3rd Iran has begun installing advanced centrifuges in its key uranium enrichment complex, accelerating activity that could give it the means to make atom bombs in future if it chooses, diplomats said on Thursday.
wth kind of answer is that? look I gave you an example of an enemy we openly aided with massive arms shipments, intelligence sharing, technology and strategic planning over years that then became our mortal enemy for half a century. and you say “hello, we’re talking about post cold war honney?” I’m dumbfounded by the sheer magnitude of your idiocy.
Bob
Oh,Are you proud of that? if you mean Shah, the dictator of Iran and your servant, you just armed him against Soviets and you also did the nasty Coup of 1953 to overthrown Mosaddegh therfore you must know why Iranian hate your politicians so much.You should also know about the shameful “Capitulation”
and Ella death to America only means how much people hate politicians in US . It is very different with when a person with a political position says there is no item off the table against Iran even bombing. “Could gives ” might be may be ………
Israel, Pakistan and India already have nuclear weapons without signing the N.P.T and know one seems to hesitate questioning those three neighboyurs of Iran because they all suck the balls of US.
yes I”m proud of arming the soviets. there are shitty ppl in the world that need to be armed to keep away shittier ppl in the world. I wish your entire place was filled with liberal democracies that respected human freedom, but it ain’t. and death to america, means exactly that, death to america. if you meant “we disagree vehemently with america’s elected leaders foreign policy” you’d shout that, or something similar. people in america know that the iranian government fosters racist hatred of the american people, even if there are iranians who don’t think that way about americans personally, its through no help from the iranian regime.
lets face the bare facts, iran is the one of the vilest governments on the planet. unless they are actively bribing ppl with economic or political favors or appealing to religious fanaticism they are not going to be liked by very many upstanding ppl. they regularly finish near the bottom on THE PLANET in economic, social and political freedom.
Bob
I think I am agree with some part of what you said (economic, social and political freedom eventhough it is not as terrible as what probabely your media projects) but ok, now what is the position of US in all this.
My answer: nothing, US don’t give a shit to freedom, democracy or whatever in Iran. They just want an obedient government like Pakistan or Saudis in Iran, to safe the future source of energy and to have all the region under control. As long as they put pressur on the I.R this freedoms will be more restricted. So hands off of Iran.
And who defines the shit and the shittier? Isn’t Israel a shitty regime? or Saudis?
actually the most likely way to secure iran’s “pumping” of oil is to make you a democracy, as it will probably turn you into a petrostate like venezuela which is now running a deficit during the greatest oil boom in history, existentially this autocracies that spend almost nothing on the people and just create huge funds to buy western business assets are far more dangerous. and trust me, we hate the pakistanis and saudis and they both hate us. we have fleeting mutual interests, but just for example the pakistani’s stab us in the back about 85% of the time. and the saudi’s actively funnel billions of dollars into america with the direct goal of spreading a religion of tyranny and hatred.
and no way you and your vile government gets to use the “omg the big bad americans dont like us so we have to crush human freedom.” thats the same dumb excuse castro uses for his shitty little country.
“death to America only means how much people hate politicians in US”
Oh, really?
If government of USA would sponsor “death to Iran” rallies you would say that “death to Iran” means that people hate ayatollahs in IRI but really, really like amerikan people?
As for Iran bombing………….perhaps that won’t be necessary.
Local authorities in Tehran recently destroyed seven ancient synagogues.
Perhaps they will continue with the destruction and will destroy ancient palaces, old churches, modern palatial mansions,and so on and so forth. On the other hand perhaps they burned synagogues to the ground just because they don’t like………. synagogues..
ups
should be : “people hate ayatollahs in IRI but really, really like Iranian people?” i/o “…amerikan people”
hey mani, who died and made you the big expert of world politics? You are as dumb as a box of rocks as far as I’m concerned. Comparing Israels democracy to Sowdis muslim hate mongers is the epitome of ignorance.
And Ella- good job.