Lacking Reasons to Hate Israel
By Kamangir • May 8th, 2008 • Category: Features, Israel, Lead StoryOn September 2005, Azadeh and I boarded a plane at Tehran’s Mehrabad Airport and traveled all around the globe before we landed in Winnipeg. It is fair to say that the land we started rebuilding our life on belongs to the people now politely referred to as the “aboriginals”. There is no need to look at the statistics; you only have to walk in the streets north of Winnipeg to see how off the society the original inhabitants of this land are. This observation will be complete when you talk to some “Canadians” and how much pissed off they are of “these people who reproduce to rip off more of our tax money”. Does that mean that I hate Canadians? Obviously not. Does that mean that I think the aboriginals are sub-human? Definitely not.
Imagine a Canada not surrounded by the Oceans, but by millions of Inuit ready to fight the European “occupiers”. Imagine an Indian leader having said “if each one us spits once, we are able to wash these bastards off our land”. Imagine cash and weapon coming from all around to fight off the “bastards”. Does that sound familiar? Yep, that would be called Israel and the leader will be the late Ayatollah Motahari of Iran.
The “occupiers” of Canada, including Azadeh and I, have been fortunate enough that none of the above has happened, that the first waves of immigrants were able to “push the indigenous people up north”, putting it very gracefully. Then, we came down the staircase and to the new city which embraced us and gave us new hope.
Does that mean that I think morality is not a factor in global affairs? I don’t know. Do I imply that we have the right to be where we are? Maybe. We are living here anyways. Do I mean that the same applies to Israel? Well, no European has had Canada being mentioned as the promised land and they are here. Israelis at least have the name mentioned in their “holy book”.
I wouldn’t want to be a Palestinian living in a refugee camp for sure, similarly not an Inuk living in a dusty reserve, if I could choose. Nevertheless, I don’t see what makes Israel anything more than a Canada established on the peak of a volcano.
Posted by Kamangir
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Kheyli ghashang neveshti. Man ham mesle to be hamin natijeh residam va hamintor fekr mikonam. Mamnoon.
Thanks. As another Iranian of our generation, I totally agree with you. I eventually realized the exact same thing. Thanks for sharing!
Sorry, but your argument is very shallow. It is just because of the opposition disorder you might have b/c what you have heard for years in Iran. but that doesn’t mean what they have said for years (sometimes in an ugly way) is not right. again, it seems you are trying to be different from what you have heard for years after you move outside Iran and saw other countries. thats it. Don’t forget that breaking a taboo does not always makes you right.
Kamangir: Would you please elaborate more on “the shallowness of my argument”?
آرش جان ببخشيد من انگليسيم خوب نيست واسه همين Ùا رسی مينويسم. خواستی پاکش Ú©Ù†.
مهاجرانی مثل شما Ùˆ آزاده خانم اصلا قابل مقايسه با مهاجران اسرائيلی ها نيستيد Ú©Ù‡ بتونيد باهاشون همزاد پنداری کنيد! شما دانش Ùˆ توانايی خودتون رو برداشتيد برديد کانادا Ùˆ کاملا به قوانين اونجا اØترام ميذاريد بنابراين نبايد اونجا بهتون بی اØترامی بشه.
Øالا Ùرض کنيد شما Ùˆ تعدادی ايرانی ديگه نيروی زير زمينی Ù…Ø³Ù„Ø ØªØ´Ú©ÙŠÙ„ ميداديد Ùˆ سعی ميکرديد Øکومت ايرانی اونجا تشکيل بديد! مطمئن باشيد اگه زندانتون نمیکردن عرض سه سوت مينداختنتون بيرون.
مهاجران اسرائيلی مهاجرهای بی آزار مظلومی نبودن، درسته Ú©Ù‡ مردم عادی Ú©Ù‡ مهاجر کردن شايد اين منظور رو نداشتن ولی سردمدارانشون با توپ پر اومده بودن Ùˆ ميخواستن Øکومت اونجا تشکيل بدن.
Short Translation: You have taken your skills to the new country whereas the Israelis went there and started a revolt.
Kamangir: Navid Jan, How do you think the indigenous people here were “convinced” to give up their lands?
The reason is even the comparison between your situation in Canada and Israel is not a parallel. You live in Canada and you OBEY the Canadian Law otherwise they will come and arrest you, you recgonize the Canada as “Canada” and in order to be a canadian you will try to pass the immigration rules based on canadian law and they have every right to denay you as their citizen and even deport you if they recognize that you do not obey the law of Canada. But imagine some day you decide to announce Canada as your country not through canadian law but based on “your” law and you want to change the name of the country to “Kamangir Abad” and set Jewish law as the law of the land and force people to recognize this new country and even force canadian to get visa in order to enter some part of their old country, be sure in this senario canadian will fight you and won’t recongnize this new country “legal” and “acceptable”; and if you start killing their family in order to force them to recognize you and not fight with you of course they will hate you and will fight back however they can.
Kamangir: Sara Jan, the analogy is not between me and the first Israeli settlers. It is between them and the first European immigrants to the West.
I agree with Navid and sara.
Kamangir: More elaboration please?
لینک سقوط هواپیماها توی ایران نیاز اساسی به Ø§ØµÙ„Ø§Ø Ø¯Ø§Ø±Ø¯
Kamangir: Which link?
Archer, I had a feeling that you’d get these sort of responses. When I read your article, I thought “Uh oh, not many of his readers are going to like this.”
Kamangir: The irony is, I haven’t seen any logical counterargument yet.
Brando, The point is not if somebody like this or not, I wish I could like this, The point is how logical it is and how much this comparision relates to the real situation. Again, The problem is not likability, the point is how much it is close to the reality. So please don’t confuse the arguments to distract people from the main subject.
Arash you said “It is between them and the first European immigrants to the West.” so clear how do you relate this part to :
“This observation will be complete when you talk to some “Canadians†and how much pissed off they are of “these people who reproduce to rip off more of our tax moneyâ€. Does that mean that I hate Canadians? Obviously not. Does that mean that I think the aboriginals are sub-human? Definitely not.”
who are Canadian in this metaphore? are they “first Jews” in israel? are they ” Palestinians”?
What is your role? are you “the fisrt European immigirant to West”? so are jews angry with these first European immigirant like canadian are angry with you in your story?
what is you point exactly?
Kamangir: In the analogy I am an Israeli citizen.
Hehehe
And what do you think todays Canadians are? Nowadays it is white/black/brown laws not the laws of the natives. The Inuits and the Indians are living under the conqueror’s laws and the conquerors are white people (like me), brown people (like arash or arabs living in Canada) and the black people .
And the situations is even worse than in israel - israelis were living in palestine for some time before arabs came, in Canada whites and blacks and arabs did not live in Canada at all.
In other words - we are all Israelis in Canada.
Veni Vidi Vici.
still doesn’t make sense. you don’t hate canadians but when you are guest in their home trying to own their home and force them to be changed in a way you like. It doesn’t matter if you hate them or not, eventually they won’t like you period.
and to ella:
are justifying what European immagirants did to native americans? This is the part of history that white americans are still ashmed of it; and have you ever talked to a native american to see if they are happy with the situation that has happened to them? do they even have a voice right now? because they have been destroyed and don’t have a voice means they have accepted the occupation and they are happy about it now? and does it justify any other occupation by force?
BTW according to your argument “Veni Vidi Vici”‘ Hitler did the right thing to kill all those jews and non jews. based on your reasoning holocaust is very acceptable event and it is ok if it happens again.
Kamangir: Exactly how did you infer that?
Hehehe
Just have a look back in the history of your country “Iran” , thousands of years ago when Aryans came to Iran, although they learned alphabet and writing,cultivating, etc from them they called them as deviles (Deev) and killed them and made stories about their fights with those poor civilized “devil”es. and finally they called this land as Iran that means land of Aryans.
Kamangir: I do agree.
Have I talked to native americans - yes I did, to Inuits.
do they have a voice right now - yes, they do.
are they happy about status quo - some are, some aren’t
am I ashamed about what whites done to Inuits and first nations - not really. To put it differently I am as ashamed by what whites did to natives as the muslims are ashamed by what they’ve done to serbians, bulgarians and hungarians.
Does it justify any other occupation by force - well, occupation by definition is done by force otherwise it would not be called occupation. But no, I do not justify occupation by force - neither occupation of kurdistan by syrians and turks and iranians, nor West Bank by israelis.
Veni Vidi Vici - many palestinians are saying that holocaust is acceptable as do some Iranian mullahs, but as for myself I believe that genocide is unacceptable in this day and era. However looking at Sudan history may yet show me wrong.
“do they have a voice right now - yes, they do.” they have a voice as long as it is about their dance and language to entertain others about their history but when it comes to real voice if they want to claim their land of course they won’t have any voice.
“am I ashamed about what whites done to Inuits and first nations - not really.”
unfortunately you are biased. because if it is good to come to a new land, kill and replace them so let iranian mullas do whatever they want to iraq and isreal. either it is bad or not. if it is bad whites should be ashmed of what they did, if it is not bad “day and era” doesn’t mean anything, it is always not bad.
Kamangir: With all due respect, have you ever lived in Canada?
I’d also like to know your reaction to Emad’s comment.
I am a white american and my shame is all run out Sara, sorry. Eternal grievance mongers can go suck an egg.
by devils, i meant the aboriginals of now called “Iranian plateau”.
To Arash:
I infer it based on :” In other words - we are all Israelis in Canada.
Veni Vidi Vici.”
When you have the power you can decide for people who live in a land doesn’t matter who they are or how long they have lived there. exactly like jews who were in germany and Hitler didn’t like them and wanted to clear his land from them. That was his land and he had every right to has his own law and citizen who were jew weren’t citizen anymore based on his law,no matter how long they have lived there. why? because Hitler had the power, because as emad said: “Just have a look back in the history of your country “Iran†, thousands of years ago when Aryans came to Iran, although they learned alphabet and writing,cultivating, etc from them they called them as deviles (Deev) and killed them and made stories about their fights with those poor civilized “devilâ€es. and finally they called this land as Iran that means land of Aryans.”
like native American who were killed by whites, some jews should be happy about what has happened to them.
This is not my reasoning this what is appeared from yours.
To Arash:
I am an American.
To bob:
That just shows your tolerance towards a logical discussion.
There is nothing terribly logical about this discussion. But there needs to be push back against the grievance mongers, they are an ill upon the world’s soul. Its typical though that you would use a nice buzzword like “tolerance.”
bob,
do you say this: “There is nothing terribly logical about this discussion.” because I used the forbidden words like “jews” and “hitler”?
Its typical though that you would use a nice buzzword like “grievance mongers” and “an ill upon the world’s soul”.
Hitler is generally a pretty lame crutch. But even if we take that away most of the rest is about as unimpressive. And now you’re just getting peevish.
Are you trying to make a new joke?
Do you really think that immigration to US, Canada and Australia is the same as Israil where only Jwish people are entitled to live. Do you really think that Canadina poeple are treating aboriginals the way Israili regim is doing with Palestinians?
And do you really think that people of US or Australia of today are not sorry about what their ancestors did with original inhabitants , Indians and aboriginals?
Well at least the new prime minister of Australia doesn’t think that way and he proved it in aplogy day when he said we appologies without any conditions from the stollen generation etc.
How much you owe to your lords in Tel Aviv ? How much?
Kamangir: So, if people are “sorry” then it’s fine? Why don’t we let Israel massacre the whole Palestinian population and then sincerely apologize? As of the Australian case, I do hope the peace does happen and then we witness the apology. Without a peace there is no chance for any apology, from any side.
to Mani
Dear Mani, the words that new prime minister of Australia has said is a part of his populistic policies. like his other words that is messing up the country,
please try to find more information about Israeli-arabs, who are Arab Muslims who has accepted the Zionist government and they are living like normal citizens with the same rights as jewish people, besides they have exception from obligatory military service. there is also Christians, and Darouzis, and other minorities like Bahai’s who are aboriginals of Palestine and living with out any problem in Israel.
The analogy makes sense in some ways. There are also some important differences between the situation you describe and Israel’s situation, besides the ones you mentioned.
The Inuit analogy falls down in that a sizable percentage of Canadians are NOT the descendants of people who lived in Canadian territory under the control of the First Nations until the threat of pogrom and violence by Inuits drove them to flee to their 15km-wide sliver of a historical homeland on the west coast of Canada.
That IS true of Israelis.
A significant percentage of Israelis are descended from Jews who fled from Arab countries (Morocco, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, etc.) from 1945 onward to escape escalating pogroms and a general atmosphere of growing anti-Semitism. All told, more than 1 million Jews fled Arab countries from 1945 on, due to a rising tide of threats, violence and murders.
These 1000000+ Jews fled to Israel from the Arab world as refugees and were absorbed into Israel, many living on land that had been occupied by Arabs at some point. 700000 Palestinians left Israel and entered the Arab world as refugees in 1948. Only Jordan provided citizenship to a sizable number. None of the countries from which large numbers of Jews had fled granted citizenship to appreciable numbers of Palestinian Arabs, as Israel did for the Arab-Jewish refugees.
Israel is also still 20% Arab today, a population that has been growing without a break since before 1948. The Arab world is mostly empty of Jews; only a few thousand remain.
All of this is a far cry from Canada - or from the US, where Europeans slaughtered the entire local aboriginal population in most areas (including women and children), and death-marched tribes that surrendered to Oklahoma before sending them to reservations in deserts (many other nations have done little better, so I shouldn’t pick on the younger, 19th-century US).
I support financial reparations to Palestinians - and Israelis - who fled their homelands and gave up so much. I believe that Israelis probably need less in the way of reparations, because Israel has already provided for their recovery. I believe that Arab regimes that have likewise invested significantly in settling Palestinian Arabs and making peace, and which had few Jews in the first place - e.g. Jordan - should not be asked to contribute any reparations at all - rather the opposite. I am all for a Palestinian state on the WB if the Palestinians can get their act together. Some of the reparations would go to help build a Palestinian state. At this point I think Egypt should control Gaza; I no longer trust the Gazans to govern themselves.
Thanks for an interesting post.
At what age do they start teaching people that Jews are evil and that Israel only accepts Jews as citizens?
Arabs who live in Israel have full civil rights but not full civic responsibilities. Muslims are not required to serve in the IDF but, they can volunteer. There are 12 Arab Muslims in today’s Israeli Knesset (59 since Israel’s first Knesset); Muslim families receive full child allowances for their children; Muslims receive full health care and education (including universities built specifically for them); many Muslim Arabs living under the Palestininan Authority try to move into Israel for the better conditions and most Arab Christians have moved out of the Muslim controlled areas all together.
Sara, you and your ilk can take a long walk off a short pier.
Sara
It seems that you did not learn world’s history . Hitler did not murdered jews in his land, “his” land was germany not russia, poland or france. Majority of jews killed by Hitler were killed not in germany but shipped out of germany proper and killed inside invaded countries.
And you are completely missing the point getting angry at things done to palestinians and glossing over injustice done to other people who in my view are equally or more deserving of our anger on their behalf.
Uh and Archer I am somewhat skeptical about stuff on McCain. This guy you linked to really hates McCain’ guts.;-(
To ella:
based on what you said before “Veni Vidi Vici”; russia, poland and france were Hitler’s land, just like whites who came here and cleared native Americans and claimed it as their land.
Again this is not what I think; this is what you belived in: “veni vidi vici”.
Tom you don’t get the point do you?
argument is not about jews or non-jews.
what you said is just like I say yes in America indidan American are recieving full rights as others. because they don’t have enought food and water they want to come to other parts out of their small towns to have better conditions.
The argument is not that, the argument is what happened to them and their land in the first place. It doesn’t matter if they are jews, muslims, indian american or whatever else, it is justice which matters.
and I am going on a trip and won’t be here to write comments. maybe some other time.
The analogy need not stay in Canada or Ancient Iran. It can equally well be extended to the palestinians as well. They were not the aboriginals of the land either. Arabs are from southern deserts originbally. The inhabitants of the land, after the jews were exilled and in the years prior to the Arab invasion of all Middle East, were a combination of smaritans, Arameans and Syrians (speaking ramaic ans specially Syriac), Jews (Theer always remained small Jewish communities in the land) and so on. Populations move and change. That is just the way it is.
Sorry about the typo mistakes. I was in a hurry.
Dear Kamangir
That was an amazing “Bill O’Reilly- grade” comparison acrobatics… wow, have been watching lots of FOX lately? Comparing orthodox and Zionist Jews with Canadians? seriously? and concluding what Israel does is de facto “OK” because what the pioneers did (how many centuries ago, mind you) was OK … because you are enjoying the result???
I commend you Sir, bravo indeed, I’m sure Machiavelli would also be very proud of you.
What you say basically comes down to this; “if some monstrosity benefits me at the end, it is OK”.
Where did the human decency go? what about empathy? right and wrong? human rights? all suspended because you are benefiting off the wining side of the story???
What happened in the “new world” was barbaric genocide, it was WRONG and it would not be tolerated by any sane (and fair) person if it were happening today; exactly the same goes for what Israel has done and is doing, it has been and will be WRONG no matter who wins, no matter who is more “civilized” or technologically advanced.
I would openly hate my own people and condemn their actions if they were doing something of that sort, I would not want to live with them or be associated with them…
Could you please do us all a favor and use the same precision, that I assume you have to follow in your scientific work, in this case also and actually read a few books on the topic before you make such outlandish conclusions from such flawed comparisons?
I too felt the backlash of the IR propaganda, but you are pushing it too far. Disappointingly far…
PS: see works by Ilan Pape, Noam Chomsky, Jimmy Carter, Norman Finkelstein, etc.
Kamangir: My favorite TV channel is BBC International.
I am not justifying anything. All I am saying is “there is a similarity between Israel and Canada, isn’t there?” I am not drawing any conclusion from this similarity. I am only calling for fairness when we condemn Israel and treat Canada as if it has had no past. Killing people is wrong, independent of their race, color of skin, and their faith. Having said that, there is a tendency for focusing on the graphic scenes of violence and forgetting that “occupation” is a trend and has been committed by many. I am asking for a deeper look.
To Emad,
I suspect if non-Jwish Israiliss are threate the same. There are plenty of documentaries about this. A christian Arab Israili was struggling to buy a land and bulit his house but non of agencies wanted to sell him a land as soon as they wree realizing his accent. Also we know how arab-Israilis who are living in neighbourhoods are disadvantaged just look at the clear difference between east and west Juraslim.
Even the national antheme of ISRAIL is about return of jewish people and not others including Arabs, christians or ….
To Arash,
Can you and your wife migrate to Israil and become citizen of Israil if you wanted to?
Kamangir: In Canada, the government of Canada decides who to admit. In Israel, the government of Israel decides who to admit.
really bahram? the muslims have ethnically cleansed about 30 million ppl in the 20th century alone.
Holy smokes. I’m gone for the weekend, and this thread blew up. You really have your fair share of trollers. The anger and hatred is in full effect.
Although it wasn’t the worst, I think my favorite line was:
“Where did the human decency go?”
I get a kick out of it when folks want to know where an abstract concept physically resides.
The human decency? Um, It’s in my fridge, right next to the honey ham.
to Mani
what is the source of that documentary, please, don’t say that you trust IRIB documentaries. eastern part of Juraselim is under control of palestin government.
have a look at 28th comment by Tom,
Watch this to realize the human decency:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DYuWOi56Wq0&feature=related
What they never show you in the zionist controlled media, thats also the reason you can not find any video about reality of that area because they don’t want you to see it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OLJzCNPm0qQ&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6z1Xfefs5_E&feature=related
Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related
Kamangir: In Canada, the government of Canada decides who to admit. In Israel, the government of Israel decides who to admit. :))))))
you couldn’y give me a better answer? what can I call this?
“this is what it is ” approch . defenitly government of Canad would not openly exclude immigration appliants based on their religion.
Secondly do you think what migrants to US and Australia did to the aborigins centuries ago was right or wrong? if yes go fuck your self if no why you should be so ignorant to what Israili regime is doing at the moment?
To Emad
My source of documentary is SBS, Australian TV.
Of course I know the eastern Juraslim is more Palestinian that’s why I said look at the difference in terms of urban dicrimination.
Israel’s 60th anniversary…no reason to celebrate!
The following statement, signed by 54 international figures in the literary and cultural fields, was published in the International Herald Tribune on May 8, 2008:
“Even after fifty years of living the Palestinian exile I still find myself astonished at the lengths to which official Israel and its supporters will go to suppress the fact that a half century has gone by without Israeli restitution, recognition, or acknowledgment of Palestinian human rights and without, as the facts undoubtedly show, connecting that suspension of rights to Israel’s official policies. … the Palestinian Nakba is characterized as a semi-fictional event … caused by no one in particular.â€
Edward Said, commenting on the “Israel at 50†celebrations in the US in 1998
The creation of the state of Israel almost 60 years ago dispossessed and uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes and lands. With their peaceful lives ruined, society fragmented, possessions pillaged and hope for freedom and nationhood dashed, Palestinian refugees held on to their dream of return, and Palestinians everywhere nourished their aspiration for freedom, dignified living, and becoming whole again.
There is no reason to celebrate! Israel at 60 is a state that is still denying Palestinian refugees their UN-sanctioned rights, simply because they are “non-Jews.†It is still illegally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands, in violation of numerous UN resolutions. It is still persistently and grossly breaching international law and infringing fundamental human rights with impunity afforded to it through munificent US and European economic, diplomatic and political support. It is still treating its own Palestinian citizens with institutionalized discrimination.
In short, celebrating “Israel at 60†is tantamount to dancing on Palestinian graves to the haunting tune of lingering dispossession and multi-faceted injustice.
There is absolutely no reason to celebrate! But there are myriad reasons to reflect, to engage, to work towards peace and justice.
Signatories:
Mahmoud Darwish (poet, Palestine),
John Berger (artist/author, UK),
Augusto Boal (director/writer, Brazil),
Ella Shohat (author, USA/Israel),
Roger Waters (musician, UK),
Ken Loach (filmmaker, UK),
Andre Brink (writer, South Africa),
Aharon Shabtai (poet, Israel),
Judith Butler (philosopher, USA),
Vincenzo Consolo (writer, Italy),
John Williams (guitarist, UK),
Tom Leonard (poet, Scotland),
Anthony Loewenstein (author, Australia),
Patrice Nganang (writer, Cameroon),
Demis Roussos (singer, Greece),
Mourid Barghouti (poet, Palestine),
Ilan Pappe (historian/author, Israel),
Naomi Wallace (playwright, USA),
Ahdaf Soueif (writer, UK/Egypt),
David Toscana (writer, Mexico),
Tariq Ali (author, UK),
Tom Lanoye (writer, Belgium),
Radwa Ashour (writer, Egypt),
Juan Goytisolo (author, Spain),
Nigel Kennedy (musician, UK),
Marcel Khalife (musician, Lebanon/France),
Gianni Vattimo (philosopher, Italy),
Gabeba Baderoon (writer, South Africa),
Milton Hatoum (writer, Brazil),
Alain Platel (dance/theater director, Belgium),
Leon Rosselson (songwriter, UK),
Al-Mutawakil Taha (writer, Palestine),
James Kelman (writer, Scotland),
Michel Khleifi (filmmaker, Palestine/Belgium),
Ian Pace (pianist, UK),
Benjamin Zephaniah (poet, UK),
Ishtiyaq Shukri (writer, South Africa),
Eyal Sivan (filmmaker, Israel),
Victoria Brittain (author/playwright, UK),
Hany Abu Assad (filmmaker, Palestine),
Raymond Deane (composer, Ireland),
Mahmoud Shukair (writer, Palestine),
Paul Ben-Itzak (dance journalist, USA/Israel),
Caryl Churchill (playwright, UK),
Simon Shaheen (musician, Palestine/US),
Margaretta D’Arcy (playwright, Ireland),
John Arden (playwright and novelist, UK),
Annemarie Jacir (filmmaker, Palestine),
Marita van der Vyver (writer, South Africa),
Adrian Grima (poet, Malta),
Omar Qattan (filmmaker, Palestine/UK),
Mary Ann Devlieg (cultural director, Belgium),
Ibrahim Nasrallah (writer, Palestine/Jordan),
Elias Khoury (writer, Lebanon)
http://inpursuitofjustice.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/israels-60th-anniversaryno-reason-to-celebrate/
Brando, your humor reminds my of Bush, you should be a great intellectual just like him.
So you’re making the point that the comments on this thread are hyper logical and non-emotive? And to prove your point you make a fallacious argument.
Ad Hominem. Sweet.
You lose.
Bring the rage level down a notch, and leave out the fallacious nonsense. If you want to build an argument then build it, and perhaps folks might listen. Maybe next time. It’s sort of fun and predictable to read anyway.
Any more self-contradicting statements?
Let me guess. You’re peaceful, and if I say otherwise, you’ll murder me?
There are a lot of emotionally charged accusations being directed at Israel and not all are true. When Israel became an officially recognized country 60 years ago, it was attacked on the same day by five Arabic countries. Because the attack was very impromptu and disorganized, the new country was able to fend off the attack. There was no “occupation” of Arab land then. They were within their borders. They were attacked because they were Jews “lower than pigs”. The same mindset of those who attacked Israel at the begining is at work among those who claim that the Jews threw the Palestinians off their land. In spite of many well-doccumented first-hand accounts that the muslim leaders of the Palestinians told the people to leave their homes because they didn’t want them there and in the way when the Jews were anniliated, it is still widely claimed that the Jews forced the Palestinians to leave. Maybe the Palestinians felt forced to leave by the presence of Jews “contaminating” the land, but not because of any physical force. These claims are similar to claims that the American government was responsible for 9/11 when there are plenty of claims by the true responsible parties. Today, Israel is “contaminated” by lush gardens that grow fruit and vegetables where it was once a desert.
Another point about the birth of Israel: I believe that day in 1948 was not the country’s first day, it was only its first day recognized by the U.N. How else to explain how it could win a war on it’s “first day”? (even if it was a small war.) Similarly, the country of Palestine exists today. When Israel walked out of Gaza, the Jews gave birth to the country of Palestine. They should have offered one additional gesture: they should have put up a sign at the entrance to Gaza saying, “Welcome to the peaceful country of Palestine.” (Maybe the Palestinians could have taken the hint.)
Who are the Palestinians anyway? Until very recently, they had no law books, no culture, no unique language or customs, no currency and no written history. Palestinians speak Arabic in a mixture of Egyptian and Saudi accents, depending on which Palestinian you talk to. In fact, if a travler to Palestine in the 1950’s would have found an Arab and asked him what he thought of Palestinians, the Arab would have told him the Palestinians are infidels worse than pigs and dogs. That’s because the Arab would have assumed the travler was refering to Jews. Before the Jews adopted the name Israel for their country, they had a symphony orchestra called the Palestinian Philharmonic. Old handbills of their performances can still be found. The Jerusalem Post newspaper used to be called the Palestinian Post. In the late 1800’s, a California newspaper reported that a group of Palestinians came to the Napa valley to teach the farmers to grow vinyards because of their success in doing it in Palestine. That group of “Palestinians” who taught farming methods were all Jews.
Brando, I don’t see what logical argument you are contributing here, only being a snob so far.
You really think that I was asking where human decency “physically resides”?
And mind you “…It’s in my fridge, right next to the honey ham” is indeed very lame humor.
I’m not arguing anything. I’m just enjoying the comments.
only 54 international figures mani? I’m sure you coulda gotten 10 times that many jew haters easy.
Sara: “BTW according to your argument “Veni Vidi Viciâ€â€˜ Hitler did the right thing to kill all those Jews and non Jews. based on your reasoning Holocaust is very acceptable event and it is ok if it happens again.”
If Hitler had won nobody left standing would have memorialized the Holocaust. Jim Crow ruled the south in America and we had our own sterilization programs (doc). Jews weren’t exactly welcomed with open arms during WWII.
Europeans pushed native “Canadians” and took their land. Europeans won. Therefore…
Bob,
Don’t be simplistic . They are all important figures (authors, philosophers, artists) and they are not jew haters but anti-zionist or anti-discrimination if you like.
Dear me this thread blew up.
Hmm
Sara”
it is justice which matters.”
therefore I am quite sure that you protest angrily against.:
- the genocidal policies of the arab government in Sudan against black muslims there and the support for these policies by majority of muslim countries
- violence against non-muslims as well as racism and discrimination and violence against chinese people in Indonesia and the support of such policies by majority of umma.
- a racism and discrimination against shia in pakistan and the lack of protest against these policies by Iran
- a racism and discrimination against shia in Saudi Arabia and the lack of protests by Iran against these policies which target shia in the KSA
- racism and violent policies of government in China against muslims and other minorities and the support for China by Saudi Arabia, Iran and other countries as well as silence about that by majority of umma.
- racism and violence in Somalia against non-musilims
- racism and discrimination against non-muslims in Egipt
- racism and discrimination against non-muslims in Bangladesh
- racism and genocidal policies of Thailad junta
and so forth and so on.
In your arguments, Sara, you also lost the main thread of the argument which is: there are many etnicities and nations today which have worse problems than palestinians have and no one is standing for them. And in the past the people and the whole nations were dissapearing without trace or they were conquered or they were forcefully converted to christianity, buddism, islam or ……………
Palestinians are no worse than many other people, in fact they are in much better position than for example shia in Saudi Arabia.
Shia living in saudi arabia have no voice in the government of Saudi Arabia, palestinians living in israel have representatives in israeli parliament.
Mani
To Arash,
Can you and your wife migrate to Israil and become citizen of Israil if you wanted to?
No-one can get Saudi Arabia nationality if one is non-muslim and it is difficult even if one is a muslim The same is true of gulf states.
Mani, ask Arash if he could immigrate to Saudi Arabia or to Gulf State and get KSA or Dubai citizenship.
He can not? But why? Arash is a muslim.!!!
Why Saudi Arabia or Dubai do not grant citizenship to muslims???
*********
Edward Said, palestinian, the guy who described orientalism as subtle and persistent Eurocentric prejudice against Arabo-Islamic peoples and their culture.
As for the statement, signed by 54 international figures in the literary and cultural fields.
You mean, Mani, that majority of these who signed the letter are living in palestine or been to palestine and they protest because they have first hand knowledge of palestinian life. Is that it?
That letter is something on par with activists from Hollywood protesting research in nano-technology……………because that’s what all activists are doing and because it’s trendy.
mani @ 46,
“Israel’s 60th anniversary…no reason to celebrate!”
Coincidently there are even more people who think there is the reason to celebrate Israel’s 60’s anniversary.
Interestingly enough there are great many more people who could not care less one way or the other.
*shrug* By its very definition, Israel gives automatic citizenship to any Jew worldwide. He merely has to go to any nearby embassy and claim it. This is because us Jews don’t view ourselves as just a religion (and never did), but rather as a state broken apart and exiled over a large period of time. By this rather simple logic, Israel sees all Jews as citizens already, hence the term “aliya” (ascention, return, in Hebrew) rather than “hagira” (immigration in Hebrew) when Jews born in other countries enter Israel to live here.
Anyone who isn’t viewed as a citizen before he even thought about moving here, and who doesn’t recieve any special government dispensation, can still become a citizen - he just has to pay for his visas and get slowly (and expensively) naturalized, receiving full social rights (such as subsidied health insurance) at the end of the road.
So yes, Arash put it quite correctly - Israel manages its own immigration policies as it sees fit, just as any country worldwide does. The only difference stems from restoring a broken-up exiled nation - which would be viewed as religious discrimination by anyone stupid enough to ignore Jewish history and identity.
But then, we’re just European Khazar invaders, eh? Mindless proxies of the White Imperialist Invasion! Evil! Evil we be! Run to the hills, the Jews are coming!
To Ella @ 55
Go back to the post, jere Arash is justifying Israil via comparing it with Canada, US and Australia not Saudi Arabia and that’s why I beleive this is not a good comparison.
Kamangir: I am not justifying anything. I am asking all of us to be fair.
to Leo @ 56
Imagin you witness some one murders another one,
you are only one witness but there are 5999999999 other people who did not witness or don’t care about it. Is that a good reason to say that guy is not guilty?
I like this one too.
“Secondly do you think what migrants to US and Australia did to the aborigins centuries ago was right or wrong? if yes go fuck your self if no why you should be so ignorant to what Israili regime is doing at the moment?”
The author sets up a question with 2 choices, based on the pivot point about genocide being wrong.
His thesis is such: If you say that genocide is wrong, then you are ignorant.
Yikes.
At first I thought it was just a temper tantrum, but I’m open to the possibility that he may actually believe that.
Let’s get some more emotive metaphors going. So far we have Machiavelli, George Bush, Bill O’Riley, Carter, and lords in Tel Aviv. Heck, let’s try Bin Laden, Hitler, Satan, Stalin, Pol Pot, Momar, or Miley Cyrus.
I’ve noticed an odd trend in middle eastern arguing style. There sure are a lot of outlandish statements disguised as questions. Some of the comments on this very thread are mostly questions. Count the question marks. Some even have three at the end of a single sentence. Rarely are they actual requests for information. It’s hilarious when someone actually tries to address them.
That’s why Archer’s comments slay me. They’re so deadpan and straightforward.
“Can you and your wife migrate to Israil and become citizen of Israil if you wanted to?” (That’s a weird question to address to someone who doesn’t work in Israel’s immigration and naturalization department. And why would you demand to know about the chances of someone else’s citizenship?)
And his answer was basically “I dunno. Ask someone who’s in charge of that crap.”
That’s funny.
Mosalmoon ha migan ye rooz emam zaman miad wa felestin ro az daste yahoodian kharej mikone, migan enghadr dar in jang adam koshte mishe ke waghti rah mirand pashoon ba zamin tama speyda nemikone, age in ye rooz ettefagh biofte wa tahlile to ham dorost bashe pas dar oon rooz nabayad az emam zaman motanaffer beshi… chon zooresh bishtare, eshghal mikone chon “mitoone” !
dar majmoo nefrat chize abdie wa hameye adyan bash mokhalef boodan, amma mokhalefat iradi nadare, mitooni begi man ba amalkarde yek keshwar mokhalefam na inke azash badam miad. chon nefrat baes mishe adam gheyre adelane tasmim begire wa ghezawat kone… na tanha dar morede israel, balke bayad begi : “Lacking Reasons to be Hateful”.
Short Translation: It is not enough to not hate Israel, you should have written “Lacking Reasons to be Hateful”.
Kamangir: Fantastic reminder. Thanks.
Arash
What being fair means in your language, no one said Jews should leave Israil or some thing similar.
The one who should be fair is Israiel not Palestinians because Israil is still denying Palestinian refugees their UN-sanctioned rights, simply because they are “non-Jews.†It is still illegally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands, in violation of numerous UN resolutions. It is still persistently and grossly breaching international law and infringing fundamental human rights with impunity afforded to it through munificent US and European economic, diplomatic and political support. It is still treating its own Palestinian citizens with institutionalized discrimination.
I don’t know why you do not put a topic like what do you think are the solutions for Israili-Palestinian conflict rather than making a comment which implicitly favour only one part of this conflict: Israil!!!!!!!!!!
Kamangir: Quite clearly, I do not have a solution.
امیدوارم روز Ù…Øشر (اگر باشه) رو سیاهیش بهت نمونه. اینم خواهشا نمی خواد ترجمه کنه یک درد دل خودمونی بود
typically ignorant mani. muslims have ethnically cleansed 30 million ppl, but fewer than a million palestinians who largely voluntarily left is really what matters. forget the jews expelled from arab lands too, because thats irrelevant. at some point mani’s blindness becomes racism.
Bob
I suspect if mongols ,Hitler, Stalin ….Bush etc etc were/are Muslim so deduct them from your statistics please!
Any refrence for your interesting statistics is welcomed but I hope the prehistoric time is not included
Did you just say that George Bush is guilty of ethnic cleansing?
To dper @ 49
I can’t argue with you regarding the historical background of the conflict because you would not accept any document of mine.
But it was interesting that you were justifyong Israilis priority over Palestinians by saying that Palestinians are not civilised or don’t have a clear law, background, speak in two languages and some other irrelevant issues.
What all these to do anything with the deprivation of palestinians. It is like saying aborigins in Australia were not civilised like those white colonizeres so it was a right thing to shoot them.
and if I wanna use your style of argument can I say that JEWS in Israiel also don’t have a clear language, law or culture. They also come from different parts of the world, with different cultures and accents and I should remind you that Israiel is the only country (If not the second one) that does not have any constitution law yet.
by Cyrus Safdari
Israel turns 60 - fact and fiction
Gershom Gorenberg has published an article entitled Seven myths about Israel on the occasion of thr 60th anniversary of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their God-given lands — which is essentially apologia about Isael, as is his psuedo-liberal book “The Accidental Empire” (thesis: Israel just ‘accidentally’ came to dominate Palestinians but didn’t really mean to.)
I thought it would be nice to take apart his explanations of these “myths”
Myth 1: “Israel is a successful democracy.” Sort of. From what began as an impoverished and war-ravaged country flooded with Jewish refugees from Europe and the Arab world, Israel has grown into a regional military power with a per capita gross domestic product that exceeds all its neighbors’. . .
Well, there is the little unmentioned fact that Israel is also the recipient of the largest peace-time transfer of wealth EVER — exceeding even the Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Europe after WWII. Gee, do you suppose THAT has anything to do with Israel’s economic “success”?? Look, even apartheid-era South Africa was an economic success and “democratic” — as long as you were white. Israel, similarly, is still an apartheid state. And in fact US money is being used to secure what are really the shaky crumbling socialist basis of Israel’s economy.
Myth 2: “Israel is a Jewish state.” Not in the way you think. Israel’s secular Jewish majority is heir to that conception. For Israel’s secular elite, being a Jew means speaking Hebrew, living in the Jewish homeland and belonging to Israeli society…
No, when they speak of Israel as “Jewish State” they mean a state in which one group (the Jews) have ethnically cleansed the others (the non-Jews) in order to artificially maintain the dominance of Jews over non-Jews. Gorenberg keeps referring to the Arab “minority” without nothing that they’re only a “minority” because the rest of the “Arabs” (aka Palestinians) continue to be murdered and exiled.
Myth 3: “Israel was born of the Holocaust.” No. Israel was born despite the Holocaust.
Every visiting foreign dignitary is taken to Yad Vashem, the official Holocaust memorial. The route proceeds from exhibits on the horrors of the death camps to the establishment of the Jewish state. The stress on the Holocaust reflects the emotional trauma that the horror still inflicts on Jews. It also underpins the political message that Jews can be safe only in their own state.
Gorenberg seems to think that Israel’s abuse of the Holocaust to justify its own existence is some sort of accident or “mistaken” impression of outsiders. It is not. It is a deliberate manipulation by Israel of US and European Holocaust guilt in order to to justify the massacre and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Myth 7: “The Israel lobby controls U.S. policy.” Never. In The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt hold the lobby largely responsible for U.S. policy toward Israel and the Middle East. The book’s greatest flaw might be that it serves as an unintended advertisement for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which is eager to play up its own influence.
Although AIPAC does lobby the Congress effectively, its influence on policy has limits. It could not prevent President George H.W. Bush from using loan guarantees as a means of pressuring Israel on West Bank settlement. In 2006, despite AIPAC’s efforts to pass a version of the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act that would have virtually cut off U.S.-Palestinian relations, the Congress opted for a more moderate bill.
“Never” huh? LOL! Note that as evidence he’s citing Bush I’s effort to pressure Israel to end West Bank settlements — but Bush I himself said that he had never come under as much pressure as a result of that decision, that he was “one lonely guy” who was battling “something like a thousand lobbyists” (and all he managed to do was delay the loan guarantees for 4 months.) That decision may have cost Bush I his second term in office too.
mani, the 30 million ppl were from the 20th century. it includes the near total ethnic cleansing of non muslims from the middle east and turkey, the annhilation of hindu’s from pakistan, the removal of millions of hindus from bangladesh, various african campaigns of genocide including sudan’s previous campaign against the blacks in the south.
Bob,
Be careful about the terms you are using.
Movement of Indian from Pakistan as was also the case for Muslim from India to Pakistan can not be called “ethnic cleanseing”.
According to this website
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm
which I just googled it these are the major ethnic genocides during the last century, As you can see the Sudan case is also included, There are two cases when muslims were responsible for genocide Sudan and East Timor with maximum 400,000 leaving the rest 45 million victims to other modern (communism) and traditional (Christian, Budism, Hinu etc) religons groups and still the crimes of white colonizers (British, Dutch, French, Portugies, etc) did in India, Vietnam, Australia, American continent and other countries and other modern ideologies (Fachism, , Nazism, Zionism etc) except Communism are not included here yet so do not blame the religion.
And by the way no faithful muslim support such genocides:
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1949 to 1987 China Communists Chinese public 40 million
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1975 to 1979 Cambodia Khmer Rouge Public 1.7 to 2 million
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1975 to 1999 East Timor Muslims Roman Catholics 200,000
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1985 Sudan Mainly Muslim militia and government Initially, mostly Animists & Christiaas; now mainly Muslims About 200,000 deaths; millions dislocated
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1994 Rwanda Mainly Hutus Mainly Tutsis; some moderate Hutus about 800,000
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1995 to 1999 Bosnia Herzegovina Serbian Orthodox Christians (mainly) Muslims (mainly) 200,000
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1998 to 1999 Kosovo Mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians Mainly Muslims 400,000 displaced; deaths unknown
Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims
1997 to present Democratic Republic of the Congo Government, army, army irregulars and rebels. General public 1.7 million killed. Others suffered rape, destruction of property. etc
and Bob
to understand what ethnic cleansing means you can have a look at this lecture by
Professor Ilan Pappe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxxMppPxXCw
And quite clearly, Arash, mani’s solution is to bash anything that
looks like not hating Israel.
Because you see, mani, Arash didn’t say that Israel is a pure dove. He
didn’t say that it’s all someone else’s fault. He didn’t say that
there aren’t any important issues on the table.
What he said, pretty much, is that Israel gets an extreme degree of
attention. That instead of trying to help solve issues, people rant
and scream about how evil Israel is when, by and large, they should be
yelling and screaming at many other countries for their very stated
reasons (to whit: Canada). And yet they don’t, which smells of
hypocrisy on the one hand, and blind hatred on the other. And then it
doesn’t appear like there’s that much to rant and scream about
anymore.
And this is why Israelis, such as myself, listen *very* aptly to
criticism leveled at Israel, if only to smirk at how the people
playing the blame game behave.
the expulsion of hindu’s from pakistan is 100% ethnic cleansing. pakistan is a very toxic and hateful place for a hindu to be. if you’re saying that it should be termed “religious” cleansing, then I would say the bigotry is near identical. also ethnic cleansing is not just killing, its also driving out. and don’t forget the slaughter of the armenians in turkey.
like I said, islam has ethnically cleansed 30 million ppl in the 20th century alone. and its not done by a longshot, infact islam’s bigotry is only increasing w/ time. more ethnic religious minorities are being driven out and persecuted across the muslim world. atleast communism had the good sense to collapse.
Roman Kalik
The reason why Israel is teh centre of attention and not for instance crimes of colonizers 2-3 centuries ago is simply because we live in teh 21th century and whi said people do not care about other problems such as Tibet, Bosnia, Burma or African disasters.
It is about the scale and the organized US-supported (as the mdoern empire of the world which claims to be the centre of democracy and freedom) that make this case more uniqe. What we expect from tribal socities in Africa. The problem is that Israel is the product of our century with all its ignorant of teh slogans of liberalism.
israel is a very liberal society with a fully functioning democracy. it gives rights to minorities and allows fringe attitudes(like homosexuality) to thrive. it is by all reasonable accounts(when you consider the amazing racism it has to endure) an incredibly tolerant society.
Bob,
You are totally right!!
I just don’t understand why should Gershom Gorenberg beleive that:
Myth 1: “Israel is a successful democracy.†Sort of. From what began as an impoverished and war-ravaged country flooded with Jewish refugees from Europe and the Arab world, Israel has grown into a regional military power with a per capita gross domestic product that exceeds all its neighbors’. . .
Well, there is the little unmentioned fact that Israel is also the recipient of the largest peace-time transfer of wealth EVER — exceeding even the Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Europe after WWII. Gee, do you suppose THAT has anything to do with Israel’s economic “success�? Look, even apartheid-era South Africa was an economic success and “democratic†— as long as you were white. Israel, similarly, is still an apartheid state. And in fact US money is being used to secure what are really the shaky crumbling socialist basis of Israel’s economy.
A good democracy for whom?
Mani, bob wasn’t talking about money, but don’t let that particular issue bother you. He was talking about individual rights, equality before the law, and the actual law in question not being that of a totalitarian and/or oppressive country.
Also, your myth-debunking? Rubbish. Utter rubbish. I could discuss the difference between military aid money and total economic aid (Israel only gets military aid), I could discuss the fact that with inflation and postwar Europe economy and monetary value not taken into consideration, the comparison to the Marshall Plan is unrealistic at best, and utter crap at worst (to give an example, the Netherlands received an estimated 400 million dollars on average during the Marshall Plan - that’s worth over 4 Billion dollars yearly in today’s dollar, and pouring that much money into a country pretty much destroyed by war means its relative local effect was a great deal more than the same would have had in, say, the US itself at the time - and all of it was pure economic aid, no specific use predefined). I could mention the fact that Egypt gets *more* aid by far than Israel, just from the US, at it gets additional aid from the EU and the UN - without much success.
As for money being the primary factor at all - Saudi’s richer. So is Qatar. And the Emirates. By a huge factor. This doesn’t make them democratic, or liberal, or successful to anyone who isn’t part of the elite. And the fun part - Saudi Arabia also gets international aid, seeing as it apparently can’t finance it’s own education and social care system. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so damn sad.
If the US stopped its aid tomorrow, Israel would lose approximately a quarter of its current military budget - and that’s about it. We’ll endure with or without US aid, and it certainly wasn’t a major factor for the Israeli economy, in effect… it mainly gave Israel subsidies when purchasing American military hardware.
To sum it up - crap politics don’t mean that you can understand economy. A first-year economy student would find the above argument regarding US aid hilarious.
I agree with you and I also think that Palestinians issues would not have been an issue if their own politicians had handled the situation differently. If there is an outrage toward Israel, why should the same outrage not be toward Jordan where was once partly the Palestine. Should we can Jordan “occupied land”? and why not stop there, Syrian’s should call Lebanon and “occupied land”? why don’t we?
And also look how Palestinians who are the citizens of Israel live in Israel..their living standard is 100 folds better than their brothers and sisters in the “occupied” territory. Shouldn’t Palestinians rejoice that their Palestinians brothers live better under the “enemy” rule?
It’s time for the outrage be where it really deserves …Palestinians so called leader failed their own people and the blame it on solely on Israel.
Roman Kalik,
Regarding the aid I refer you to this site
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
regarding teh democracy it is a matter of who first. Even regarding its own citizen there are discrimination between Arab Israilis(Arab Christians or muslims) and Jew Israilis.
But how well is that democracy working? Israel elects its leaders, and its vigorous free press sometimes publishes criticism that might be considered anti-Israel elsewhere. Much of that criticism is aimed at the undemocratic regime in the West Bank: Jewish settlers enjoy the full rights of Israeli citizens, while Palestinian self-rule is limited to enclaves.
Within Israel proper, democracy is functioning but fragile. The lack of a written constitution has left the creation of civil rights to an activist Supreme Court. But the court’s position is tenuous. Some in Israel want the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, to restrict its powers to overturn laws, rule on security matters or accept human rights cases.
Another crucial weakness is the status of the Arab minority, one-fifth of the population. Officially, Arabs have equal rights. But they’re scarce in the civil service. Arab towns and cities get less funding from the central government than Jewish municipalities. Roughly an eighth of the country’s land is owned by the Jewish National Fund, whose policy of leasing land only to Jews is at the center of a legal battle.
Arab parties, which hold only 10 of the Knesset’s 120 seats, have been consistently left out of government coalitions. Not only does that exclude Arabs from power, but it also makes forming a majority coalition much more difficult–a central, and rarely noticed, reason for the chronic instability of Israeli governments.
The crumbling of the major parties that once dominated Israeli politics has made coalition government a shaky proposition. Labor leader Ehud Barak and Likud chief Benjamin Netanyahu are both ex-prime ministers who lost their jobs in landslides, reflecting their parties’ failure to attract new leadership and the public’s disgust with politics. Solving the diplomatic impasse with the Palestinians — the country’s key challenge — is made much more difficult as a result. Israeli democracy is alive, but it needs an infusion of new blood.
wow mani you took numerous paragraphs to write this shotgun nitpick critique of israeli politics. and yet in every arab country the truth of brutality, hatred and diminished political, economic, and social freedom is far more blunt. do you ever get tired of being a racist? does it wear on you? like damn I have to go hate the jews again today?!?!
Bob,
What was the post topic again? If it was lackin reason for Saudis to be hated I would write the same even worse for Saudis again.
And by the way who is supporting those Arab elit dictators and help them to maintain their power in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UIA etc etc even Pakistan etc. I think you know the answer.
Mani
No, majority of Saudi Arabia people did not protest when the elites give them money flowing from the sales of oil, they did not protest when foreigners worked (and still are working) in blue-collar positions and they do not wish to change that now. They want to eat their cake and have it. They want to study outside of KSA, they want western technologies but at the same time they protest against “support” of US or EU for their elites. And you can not say that only US support KSA and its elites, the same now applies to other countries and to many muslims around the world.
****
And how US helps to maintain Mubarak power in Egypt - do you want US to meddle in internal politics of Egypt, perhaps militarily or perhaps you want US to help MB to get in power?
If US interfere in internal matters of ME countries you and people like you are crying that US has imperial inclinations, if it does not interfere you are saying that what it does is supporting dictators.
PAH!
completely wrong Ella,
US is using both tactics, bribing the dictators or if necessary military action or coup, there are plenty of examples.
Mr Kamangir, thank you for the post. It’s an interesting analogy, but I think it’s wrong:
Israel was the Jewish kingdom for many hundreds of years (roughly from 1100BC to 1st century AD), and Jewish people have continuously lived in Israel for over 3000 years, so surely their role in the analogy should be that of the ‘aboriginals’ / indigenous population ? Their dispersal across the world (the Jewish Diaspora) happened at the hands of the Romans, who it is estimated killed over a million Jews in 2nd century AD. I believe the later Islamic conquest may also have had an influence.
Mani - referring to Ilan Pappe, Norman Finklelstein doesn’t exactly support your case - they’re both highly discredited pseudo-historians. Pappe has admitted that the truth is not his concern. Finkelstein scholarly work is so poor and biased that as far as I’m aware he’s never actually been published in a peer-reviewed academic journal.
As for Noam Chomsky’s, a good set of critiques of his political/historical work can be found at Paul Bogdanor’s excellent site : http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomskyhoax.html
(The same site has much information about Israel and the conflict :
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/israel.html )
US is using both tactics, bribing the dictators or if necessary military action or coup, there are plenty of examples.
Yes, and both Egypt and Saudi-Arabia are fine examples - of the opposite argument. Saudi-Arabia essentially bought the support of US oil companies in the period shortly after the end of WWII, after the Saudis got tired of Brits who couldn’t drill worth a damn. They’ve been trying to use that economic power of theirs ever since - and quite successfully, some would say. Saudi-Arabia has been buying itself a kind of tranquility and invisible influence for the past sixty years.
Egypt, under Sadat, demanded (and the word *is* demanded) that the US support it financially should it leave the Soviet client-state bloc on the one hand, and the war with Israel on the other - essentially leaving it without its (arguably unreliable) regional allies and major international aid. Sadat deliberately tied the US aid money and economic agreements into the peace negotiations to get Carter into a corner, and thus he got rid of the Soviet strings that were manipulating his state, ended all of Egypt’s regional conflicts, and got a great big pile of cash and trade agreements to help build up the post-war Egyptian economy.
So who exactly is manipulating whom here?
Kamangir: To complete your analogy there would have to be some Indians that would leave Canada, probably to the US.
And we (the US) could take all those Indians, put them in camps, deny them rights, make the world give us money to support them, and hold them there for generations. They would only be allowed a basic education, and low paying jobs. We would not give them, their children, or their grandchildren citizenship. If they started any trouble we would deal with them militarily.
But the rest of the world would never know, because we would call these people “refugeesâ€.
I guess in your analogy the US could be Lebanon.
Roman Kalik,
As we all know
Before the cold war the world was divided between these two powers, Soviets and US (or the good guys and the evil guys if you like) and these two were playing a chess like game acros the world installing or removing governers in main geopolitical parts of the world using different strategies from aid, bribing, threat, military coup, invasion etc. The case of Mosaddegh is a clear exaple in Iran as for Taliban formation in Afghanistan backed by US against soviets or invasion of Vietnam.
Why would other countries around the world suffer because of the two fucking ideologies : communism vs. so called “liberalism”.
Now one side of this game has gone so the US imperialism can do whatever it wants, obliterate whoever it wants “Clinton remark” to take over as much as control over the world economic, political and cultural agenda.
Even French are afraid of cultural invasions of American movies. What defines Americans as good and lets say its enemies as bad? Democracy, human rights, free market only these three? Who defines these ?and what can ensure us these slogans are for the sake of god things.
Some times we should think beyond the racial, national and cultural boundaries? Some times I ask myself am I supporting Iran just because I am Iranian or do I hate US policies just because they are different? You should also ask am I more smar because I am Europian or should I live a better life just because the world should be divided between developed and developing for ever.
Well the answer is difficult but both of us, you and me need to cross these boundaries to be able to judge issues regardless of those limits.But I still can’t justify myself that US is the good guy or Israel is a total democracy.
One more thing to all participants in this discussion
Why every time some one criticizes Israel regim or policies, you label him/her as Jew hater or racist? are they the same? Aren’t there any jews in Israel who also criticize zionism? Like if I criticise Saudi regime, does that mean that I am a muslim-hater? Why when I criticize US policies no one lable me as a Christian-hater?
give me some insights please.
Mani #88: Salaam, haven’t conversed for awhile.
I don’t label people that criticize Israel as Jew hater, or anything else. I am a Zionist and I criticize Israel when it is deserved. I’m also a very patriotic American, and I criticize the US as well.
What I often hear from people that are anti-Israel is double-standard rhetoric. For example people will criticize Israel for their treatment the Palestinians, even call them ‘apartheid’, yet they are silent about the Arab treatment of refugees, especially in Lebanon.
Another example, especially this month, is the story of the catastrophe in 1948. According to most of these people every Arab living in Israel in 1948 was an angel, and every Jew was a tyrant, chasing them away. Most of these critics refuse to believe even one acre was legally sold to a Jew, or a single Arab was told to leave by other Arab leaders, despite much of the documents to prove otherwise.
They will quote numbers of Arabs that were displaced almost village by village in 1948, yet they will not even admit that over 400,000 Palestinians where ‘cleansed’ (that is the Amir’s statement, not mine) from Kuwait. People were killed, tortured, and then forced to leave. That was 17 years ago.
It’s as if Israel (and the US) is held too much higher standards.