Kamangir (Archer)

Reader's Comments

1. Mani | July 13th, 2008 at 4:02 am

   I think your comments lack critical or understanding of broader complex issues. They are mainly based on emotional and probably ur hatred of the current regime. We both know that at the moment, the worse scenario for people and the future of democracy in Iran is war so any US pressure, sanction, threat etc .. only empower extremists in Iran. Also historically since Iranians are not as hostile as their neighbours to Americans, any military action can turn these friendly people to the number one enemies of Americans.

   The only thing I can not comprehend yet, is the role you play in all this. You may satisfy some of ur Western readers, including right, neo-Kon or alike but what will be remembered of you, among your people won’t be a good memory especially if any attack is going to be launched over your country in the near future either by Israel or Us .
   I am more sicken than you of the current regime and those in power, but as long as my country is under pressure, sanction and biased behaviour of the West, I stand behind my country and its regime. Your choice.

   Kamangir: I agree with you that military confrontation will only empower the extremists. Nevertheless, I am sick of them silencing us “for the greater good”. I see no bad coming from humour, and, of course, I post the same content on my Persian blog and you know I am not “hated” in the Persian blogosphere.

2. Iranian missile photoshop contest « Blogging for a free world | July 13th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

   [...] Iranian missile photoshop contest July 13, 2008 Posted by blogfreeworld in Islamism, Religion, foreign policy. Tags: Ahmadinejad, Iran, missile-testing, Mullahcracy, nuclear weapons, Shahab-3 trackback I wrote about the Ayatollahs’ solution to produce terrible fear among all “the infidels” about their missile test. Well, there are very funny people in the blogosphere who have made up a contest laughing about the photoshopped images of Iranian missile test: [...]

3. Tori | July 13th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

   Mani, Granted, I am a westerner and therefore not qualified to answer your charge against Kamangir, but I will anyway.

   Certainly satire and criticism will not lead to a war against Iran. Your point that you will stand behind your country and its regime is all well and good, but it will not lead to the strong nation you seem to wish for. Nations that buck at criticism and curb humor are essentially weak.

   I can’t help but remember a conversation I had with an Iranian judge. He said something like: “Nuclear weapons do not make a country secure, a happy population does.”

4. Roman Kalik | July 13th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

   Mani, you are so utterly within your Iranio-centric context that you do not see anyone else, particularly us “Westerners”, be they Israeli or American, in anything other than the context within which you reside.

   And you allow others to define that context for you. You see plots and warmongers at every corner, and thus empower the very people who scare us “plotters” and “warmongers”.

   Do you know, Mani, there are approximately 235,000 Persian Jews here in Israel. That’s about ten times the current Persian Jewish population. They have become part of the mainstream here, from the lowliest shopkeeper to the highest politician - Presidents and Ministers, Generals and Commanders in Chief… Writers and merchants.

   Remember mentioning Shaul Mofaz once, Mani, in your attempt to paint Israelis as dangerous warmongers? Shaul Mofaz was born in Teharan. His parents come from Isfahan. Perhaps he’s not that dangerous distant stranger you so actively seek to make him - he’s quite proud of his heritage, Mani, and like many Persian Jews treats his old homeland with respect. You think he wants to destroy Iran, Mani? You think the hundreds of thousands of Persian Jews want to bomb Iran into oblivion?

   No, they don’t. But your rulers, Mani, those nice people who you so actively support as some kind of Lesser of Evils… they don’t make us feel comfortable *at all*. Far from it, because we *do* listen and *do* take note and realize that there’s no place for us in your leadership’s view of a New Palestine - not that your leaders are quite sure *what* to do with us… they never do state it directly, as I once told Kamangir. They just explain that Evil Immigrant Zionists don’t have a place here, and that they should really Go Back Where They Came From… But you don’t realize that, do you, Mani? You focus instead on the perceived Israeli threats, justifying the behavior of your leaders as some kind of *reaction*, or you tone it down in your mind without thinking about it too much… because by and large, you just don’t want to be associated with truly bad people, do you? It’s much simpler if the “Enemy” or “Other” is the real bad person, with *your* lot being just… bearable rather than bad.

   Or you just say to yourself… better my bastards than yours.

   And to that, Mani, I say… and you call *us* supposed-Westerners hypocrites? You who is unable to perceive that there are other people at stake save those dear to you, that they have their own fears and concerns, their own wishes to live their lives at peace, their own dreams to fulfill…

   But why would that bother you, Mani? You prefer to project to others what you are unable to see in your own leaders and, to some extent, fellow countrymen. You suppress it, ignore it, and then redirect it.

   And the little cynic next door just wonders at how history repeats itself, time and time again…

5. Kamangir (Archer) » Iran Islamic Republic Israel Picture of the Day » How to wipe Israel off the Map: Ahmadinejad’s Way | July 13th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

   [...] &#8226 Mahmoud’s Fantasy: Video [...]

6. Mani | July 13th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

   Roman Kalik and Tori,

   Read my comment again. I said some of your Western reader …….and of course I know Shaol Mufaz and Mushe Katsof and many other israeili politicians are Iranian. The thing is what make Israel eligible for having nuclear weapons and Iran not. i don’t want you to repeat the Ahmadinejad story again because your politicians start this game before he come to power and in fact their pressur may be responsible for this to some extent.

   You just need to ask urself this simple question. Is Iran the most dangerous country in the world as Bolton, Cheny and others keep saying day and night even if they had nuclear weapons. Soviets has thousands of them and you still shook hand with them.

   Secondly if Ahmadinejad is as evil as you may think and your media is projecting (I don’t want to seem as supporting Ahmadinejad stupid coments) do you think it is a good idea to want to secretly produce nuclear weapons and then openly talk about wipping of a country. No so there is some thing wrong here. Either they are not after a nuclear weapon or his comments doesn’t mean a nuclear war.

   It is all a language game. As Goearge Calrlin whos humour is by far better than Arash

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY

   put it Israeili murderers are called commanders while Arab murderers are called terrorists. US may even justify using nuclear weapons against Iran to prevent them making a potentially nuclear weapins. Isn’t this stupid or disasterous? It is only the power of reason and language as Foucault says that make you Westerners more reasonable and us (developing stupid uncivilised) unreasonable.

7. Roman Kalik | July 14th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

   Read my comment again. I said some of your Western reader …….and of course I know Shaol Mufaz and Mushe Katsof and many other israeili politicians are Iranian. The thing is what make Israel eligible for having nuclear weapons and Iran not. i don’t want you to repeat the Ahmadinejad story again because your politicians start this game before he come to power and in fact their pressur may be responsible for this to some extent.

   Our politicians “started this game”? Your politicians started “this game” when they threatened my country with utter annihilation all the way back in 2001. *my* politicians have been doing their goddamn best to ignore your country ever since your precious little Revolution erupted and you decided that you guys needed a Little Satan to bash. Your country, Mani, declared war both on Israel and the US - your leaders and their fanatical revolutionaries took over our embassies, and in the case of American diplomats, turned them into hostages to parade around and ridicule in some kind of macho display of bravado.

   Your precious Islamic Republic then went to expand its Revolution by creating an armed cell on our border, Hezbollah, which has been derailing any attempt at reaching a bearable status-quo between Israel and Lebanon ever since - even if one means merely one of mutually ignoring each other.

   And you know what? *my* politicians have tried to maintain precisely that kind of status-quo with your country, to avoid confrontation, hoping that some day a semblance of diplomatic relations could be restored between our two countries, because we don’t *need* armed conflicts, Mani… But your leadership desperately needs its Great Satan and its Little Satan, its public displays of missiles and lies in the press about how we’re so scared about the missiles in Israel that we’re cowering in fear and seeking to immigrate to somewhere else… It makes it so much simpler that way, distracting the local populace with this idiocy.

   You just need to ask urself this simple question. Is Iran the most dangerous country in the world as Bolton, Cheny and others keep saying day and night even if they had nuclear weapons. Soviets has thousands of them and you still shook hand with them.

   I was born in the Soviet Union, Mani. My parents and grandparents lived in a daily euphoric terror of a worldwide nuclear war that would destroy everything and anything, and nor did great-grandad much appreciate that lunatic whom so many called the Sun of the Nations, AKA Joseph Stalin.

   And you know what? The Soviet Union died, as it should have, because it was based on such utter lunacy that it could, at best, take down others with it as it imploded… Instead, it bankrupted itself in an arms race, obsessed with redesigning society on Utopian concepts and still waiting for the Socialist Heaven to actually show up while telling the people that it was already there…

   People tried to shake hands with the Soviets because the alternative was the utter annihilation of the planet. People tried to shake hands with the Soviets in the hope of changing it just a little, enough to make the potential nightmare go away. And in the end, it wasn’t the handshakes that changed matters… It was the crumbling internal order of the Union, and the desperate attempts to salvage it, and then finding out that the West had actually won the arms race by leaving the Soviets with an economy that simply didn’t exist anymore…

   Don’t compare yourselves to the Soviet Union, Mani. And don’t try to follow in their footsteps.

   Secondly if Ahmadinejad is as evil as you may think and your media is projecting (I don’t want to seem as supporting Ahmadinejad stupid coments) do you think it is a good idea to want to secretly produce nuclear weapons and then openly talk about wipping of a country. No so there is some thing wrong here. Either they are not after a nuclear weapon or his comments doesn’t mean a nuclear war.

   This assumes that the rulers of the Islamic Republic are both sensible and pragmatic people, as well as being smart. Hate to break it to you, Mani, but they don’t look like much of either. They look like people obsessed with their little Revolution, with the utter perfection of its result, and with justifying its existence by pointing at made-up enemies and goading said made-up enemies to try and make them more real, if only to show the general populace how *right* they are.

   Frankly, Mani, the current leaders of your country look like fanatics of both religious and political dogma.

   put it Israeili murderers are called commanders while Arab murderers are called terrorists. US may even justify using nuclear weapons against Iran to prevent them making a potentially nuclear weapins. Isn’t this stupid or disasterous? It is only the power of reason and language as Foucault says that make you Westerners more reasonable and us (developing stupid uncivilised) unreasonable.

   Israeli murderers are called murderers, Mani. You just call Israeli military commanders murderers as a rule because, quite frankly, it suits your political agenda - which is dictated to you by your regime.

   Do you know the difference between a military man and a terrorist? A soldier, at least a good one, aims to achieve a military goal - security for the civilian populace of his country, for example - while minimizing harm to civilians and property in enemy territory. But that doesn’t make the soldier a policeman, just as it doesn’t make the soldier’s adversary a street thug. Innocents get hurt in wars, like it or not.

   Whereas a terrorist seeks to achieve a political goal by means of maximum overkill, by deliberately and actively targeting the civilian populace, by breaking the rules of warfare (yes, they do exist) and by doing his very best to force the enemy to break them as well… Because the terrorist doesn’t have the resources of the standing army, and an end goal that supposedly justifies any means he has.

   And you know the funniest part of all, Mani? Israel’s army could have wiped out the entire Palestinian populace over the past 40 years, were Israel that kind of country. And yet people like you and your regime so actively seek to accuse us of genocide. It’s an interesting genocide, you know? It seems to be working in reverse.

   Now ask yourself this - Israel has the means to eradicate Palestine in a day, and yet it doesn’t. Had Palestine the means, had the PLO or Hamas the means to eradicate Israel utterly… would they have kept away from doing that, or would they have justified utter wholesale slaughter for their sacred end goals, be it a pan-Arab secular state or a Sunni Islamic Republic?

   Somehow, it’s the Israelis who have proven their restraint time and time again, not the other way around. The “underdog” uses everything he has, while the “overdog” pulls his punches… why is that, Mani? If the Israeli military is so evil, who doesn’t it gas whole cities and bury the bodies in the rubble, which is how Syria handled its Muslim Brotherhood rebellion? Why not *be* the ruthless bastards, eh?

   Also, don’t you go playing Inferiority Complex and Western Colonialist games on us, please. You accuse us so easily of feeling superior, of having delusions, of being manipulated and manipulating… Well, us Satans do that, eh? You yourself are guilty of this manipulation. As for using nuclear weapons on you… please don’t manipulate the unsaid words to make them supposedly said. George W. Bush was asked, by the press, if he was considering the use of nuclear weapons against Iran as a preemptive measure - he said he kept all options open, as he should. Anyone who openly disarms himself from weapons he currently has if a fool, especially in the face of a country that thinks scaring its perceived enemies (such as Israel) is the best way to go.

   Maybe Iran needs a bit scare of its own. Maybe your leaders need to realize the possible consequences of their course… before it’s too late. And they don’t seem to realize it, sadly. And worse still… you actually think them clever enough to not believe their own lies.

8. Mani | July 14th, 2008 at 6:56 pm

   Roman Kalik

   You are totally ignorant to what your country have done and is doing around the world. ur first paragraph and this sentence “*my* politicians have been doing their goddamn best to ignore your country ever since your precious little Revolution erupted ” stopped me reading the rest of your story. may be later if I find time I will read it but don’t think will change any thing.

   I think u just missed one thing and that the imposed war just one year after that revolution backed by ur country and its allies and who said that before the revolution human right was better than now in Iran when Iran was ur best military base against soviets, ur main source of oil and the best market for ur fucking consumerism.

   We don’t want to live ur way, Ur ignorant obese consumer culture already have destroyed the world enough and it is my uncle that spend millions of dollars to destabalize my country, escalate the ethnic conflict and split between iran and its Arab neighbours not your bastard politicians.

9. ella | July 14th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

   “Ur ignorant obese consumer culture already have destroyed the world enough ”
   Mani
   It is funny, is it not, that you now live in that obese consumer culture and you still did not returned to Iran.
   When are you going to leave that obese consumer culture you hate so much, Mani?
   When are you going to go back to IRI?
   Why did you even went to Australia in the first place , to that awful consumer culture you dislike ?

   As for the bastard western politicians………hmm, what about the Ayatollah Mohammad Yazdi who bought Dena Tire Company worth 600 mln dollars for 10 millian dollars?
   What about Tabas Stone Mining ?Company and twelve other large mines in in Khorasan which were handed over illegaly to ayatollah Vaezi Tabasi, the ?representative of the leader of Iran in that province?
   What about Rafsanjani familly who own large businesses in Canada?
   What about intentional killing of Ahmad Kazemi, a former commander of Pasdaran by other people in the same organisation?
   What about 100 million dollars allocated for Ahmadinejad - does his living expenses are so small that only 100 million dollars gets allocated to him every year?
   It is not the bastard western politicians and occidental ignorant obese consumer culture who destroys Iran but Iran’s own, iranian-made, islamic-taught, politicians who destroy Iran.

10. Roman Kalik | July 14th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    Mani, you’re a fool. Had you actually bothered to read any of my replies in their entirety, you would have realized that I’m not American - I’m Israeli!

    And no, we’re not the same country. Or share the same politics. Or are part of some evil anti-Muslim Western conspiracy to rule you.

    Also, hate to break it to you, but Iran’s war with Iraq was just that - *your* war. Saddam hated you guys since day one, you were encouraging his Shi’a population to join your Great Revolution, and your Islamic Republic was entirely incompatible with the Baathist pan-Arab nationalism, and your own ruling gang saw it as a great idea to reach out to Iraq’s Shi’a and offer them the fruits of Revolution, much in same way they did in Lebanon. And uh, hate to break it you, Mani, but the Persian conflict with the Arab world has its own long history.

    But you can just blame everything on evil Western imperialists, just like your regime does. As I said, it makes everything simpler. No one has to think that way, and that’s just too much effort.

11. Mani | July 20th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    Ella,

    First of all it is none of ur business when I am leaving Australia or if I wanna stay here.

    Secondly I was talking about Americanism and I think you should have realized by now that most of the world including Europians, Australians, Asians and of course south Americans now hate the American way of forcing and bullying other countries.
    I hope you soon realize it and change your policies before it become too late and your fall in to the destiny that exint all other empires of the world from Romans to Persians.

    And Roman Kalik,
    You said this was us that started calling you great satan. Have a longer memory please. Have you forgot the 1953 Coup in Iran? for god sake go and read the history of terror and military intervention of ur country and the crimes that C.I.A has commited around the world and continues to do so as long as there are people like u blind to these.

12. Mani | July 20th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    and there is no difference between America and Israel by now I guess its 52 or third (not sure) state of US or may be the other way around. Who knows ?????

    Have u ever heard US condemning any of crimes commited by your terrorist state???

13. Mani | July 21st, 2008 at 12:18 am

    Roman Kalik

    Don’t blame me because ur support of US doesn’t make any difference in ur nationality, there is no difference between these two any more.

    And what else your politicians wanted to do to make a nation who apart from having a different race and language realized the worse crimes that any one with a TV screen could witness on the screen in the 21 th century. Arabs were hopeless and Europians were so shamefull of their ancestors crimes and Americans, the residents of the new empire, couldn’t see anything except what their media was telling them and if there was any one who wanted to expose some of the crime that ur terrorist stated have been comiiteted since 1948, it was when they were not in power any more like Jimmy Carter or have not been heard or labled with different brand as communists or anti-semitic like George Galloway. But this can not last forever and the people of the world have strated to see the truth behind your big excuse i.e. holocaust which have become your certificate for stifling any voice against your new fascism in Palestine.

    What else you wanted to do except occupying other people lands including Levenon and Syria, cleansing Palestinians , sending them to refuge camps, putting them in a giant prison and blocking their food, electricity and fuel ….How dare you to say you were doing nothing.

14. Mani | July 21st, 2008 at 12:26 am

    Ella,

    You seems to have quite good record of ayatollah Vaezi Tabasi, rafsanjani, Ahmadinejad etc corruption. Is this your final card.

    Have you ever happened to notice that right now, while I am pressing my keyworld to write these comments , Ohud Olmert is under accusation for his financial corruption not to mention Muse Katsof who was accused of Rape charges. I love Israeli politicians. They are the mosty honest, moral and non-corrupted leaders I have ever seen :)))))))))))))

15. Roman Kalik | July 21st, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    Thank you, Mani, for proving that the only regional history you ever read is the one taught by your regime, with all that entails.

    What we ever wanted? We wanted to *live*, you idiot. We’re not just some political statement, or a vague “enemy”. We are *people*.

    And why don’t you deal with that. Or with the fact that you’ve been fed a bagful of hate and lies about us ever since your precious Ayatollahs rose to power - and that all you do now is echo the rhetoric of the fallen pan-Arab nationalists who waged war on us since the very founding of our state.

    “Israel does not exist! Never negotiate with them! Just kill and kill and kill until they “go back where they came from”, those evil Zionazi pigdogs! They are outsiders, and it’s all their fault!”

    How about checking who started which war, eh? And how events actually progressed instead of how you were taught to *expect* them? And how about actually reading about the Zionist movement, and what were its actual scope and goals? How about treating us Israeli Jews as PEOPLE for a change, rather than an extension of *this* enemy, or a part of *that* conspiracy. We are *people*, no better and no worse than your own. Deal with that, instead of reducing us to a vague political lie simply because it’s easier for you to deal with our very existence that way.

16. leo | July 21st, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    Many: “Ohud Olmert is under accusation for his financial corruption not to mention Muse Katsof who was accused of Rape charges. I love Israeli politicians. They are the mosty honest, moral and non-corrupted leaders I have ever seen”

    You are missing (or not?) the point here. It is not important how corrupt or honest Israeli politicians are but rather what Israeli courts and public do when they learn about corruption. Can you say those corrupt ayatollahs will ever stand in court and be questioned about their deeds?

17. Mani | July 22nd, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    Leo,

    yes. The cheif police of Tehran was arrested and removed from his position last month becasue of sex scandle.

    Roman Kalik,

    Did I said any thing about killing in my comment. Did even Ahmadi Nejad who you beleive fantesizes about wiping Israel off the map talked about killing Jews , no no no never. He actually embraced many rabbies and said clearly in Colombia University that I didn’t say there was no holocaust and there is a solution for this 60 years long conflict and the solution is a referandum.Are you saying these are lies?

    I think you just need to check the youtube at least. You are accusing me of being brainwashed while you yourself never want to beleive any other fact except what CNN, BBC or Fox News tell you.

18. Mani | July 22nd, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    and the problem is not whether you are people or a political statement. The critical point here is that Palestinians are also *people*. Why not start from their history and what happened to them and is happening at the moment? They are not sub-human or dogs as Cherchil used to say when he was granting that land to your Zionist inventors.

    The question is when you want to start hearing their voice. Negotiating with their representatives (Hamas) and not supporting the other party (fatah) because this was Hamas that was elected by them and no matter what you call them at the end you have to sit and hear the once from an equal not superior position.

19. leo | July 22nd, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    “The cheif police of Tehran was arrested and removed from his position last month becasue of sex scandle”

    Of cause chef of police is big enough figure. However, investigation of Rafsanjani would probably more on par with investigation of Olmert or Katzav.

    “Did even Ahmadi Nejad who you beleive fantesizes about wiping Israel off the map talked about killing Jews , no no no never. He actually embraced many rabbies and said clearly in Colombia University that I didn’t say there was no holocaust and there is a solution for this 60 years long conflict and the solution is a referandum.Are you saying these are lies?”

    If Ahmadinejad is simply misunderstood regarding his “Wipe off the map” expression and his Holocaust cartoon contest and other suspiciously anti-Israel/anti-semitic actions why then he does not issue correction, explanation, anything?

20. Mani | July 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 am

    He did but he has never been heard, he is an anti-Zionist for sure but he is neither looking for a military option nor he is an anti-semitic.

    Check for example these
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryXiFYYXzyM&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ

    However I blame him for in his inexperienced speeches and not being clear about his comments that offended many Jews.

21. Roman Kalik | July 23rd, 2008 at 1:27 am

    I think you just need to check the youtube at least. You are accusing me of being brainwashed while you yourself never want to beleive any other fact except what CNN, BBC or Fox News tell you.

    You think I didn’t check the youtube? And you think I didn’t hear all that uninformed and utterly politically biased stuff in the past?

    And you know the amusing part? Of your stated news outlets (which are all, at least to you, part of some kind of Mass Propaganda Conspiracy - Or as Galloway put it, “Owned by Zionists”), I read about an article every four days out of the first and second, and have never watched Fox News in my entire life.

    This is because I neither live in the US, nor in the UK. I live in Israel, and I access reputable foreign news outlets(yes, CNN and BCC, though each has its flaws, are *reputable* news outlets - unlike anything owned and run by the Islamic Republic, where the news must tow the Party line) for the occasional international news.

    The critical point here is that Palestinians are also *people*. Why not start from their history and what happened to them and is happening at the moment? They are not sub-human or dogs as Cherchil used to say when he was granting that land to your Zionist inventors.

    When did Zionists, or Churchill for that matter, say that Palestinians aren’t human? And I know the history - far better than you, apparently. I know the history of the early Twenties and Thirties (Haj Amin il Husyani, the Mufti of Jerusalem, calling the Western Wall an inseperatable part of an Islamic worship site, and thus No Jews Allowed, massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929).

    Or perhaps you’d like to hear the history of the 1948 war, when just about every single Arab nation in the region declared that should Israel declare independence, a total war would be declared to… “erase” the Zionist Interlopers. Guess what? That declaration resulted in a massive number of war refugees, all Palestinian Arabs, to leave to the lands of said Arab invaders - where they were welcomed and given shelter for the duration of the war.

    The Jews of Palestine had nowhere to go, nowhere to run, so they made their stand. And somehow, the State of Israel *was* born, with its remaining Muslim Arabs, and Christian Arabs, and Bedoins, and Circassians, and Druze… But those aforementioned? Those who remained in the territory of enemy states, effectively waiting for their Jewish neighbors to be “cleansed” and then to return after the war? They weren’t let back in after the 1948 war officially ended. Maybe, just *maybe*, it had something to do with the fact that the Jews of the newly-founded Israel saw them as traitors who wanted them dead, and preferred survival to suicide.

    And it’s amusing how you conveniently ignore how both Jordan and Egypt at the time annexed and occupied the West Bank and Gaza, respectively, without so much as a complaint from the likes of you… ever.

    And yet when *Israel* was ended up controlling said territories after the Six Day War (a war it didn’t start, didn’t want, and after which it immediately asked for postwar negotiations - angrily refused because of arrogant pride of the Arab League), it is now the Great Evil Occupier. Great Evil Occupier my ass - Israel tried to negotiate for these very territories a minute after the war ended, and all it got was “drop dead” in response. Or perhaps you’d like to discuss the Palestinian leadership, which had only emerged in some kind of coherent political-military framework in that decade, in the form of the PLO?

    You know, the same PLO that actively tried to “liberate all of Palestine” (to whit, destroying my country in the process), had pretty much targeted civilians as its main course of action since its very inception, and that attempted armed revolts in neighboring Arab states (tried and failed in Jordan - now known as The Black September Incident, tried and succeeded in Lebanon, ignited the second Lebanese Civil War as that state lost all semblance of sovereignty, and resulted in a back-and-forth conflict between PLO-controlled Lebanon and Israel).

    And you know what? Unlike the great Arab Supporters of the Resistance, who kept the Palestinians in camps and pointed them at Israel as the cause for their poverty and suffering (thus getting an expendable human weapon to serve their political ends), Israel is actually trying to reach an *agreement* with Palestinian leaders who actually bothered to accept Israel as a neighbor, rather than merely a place to “liberate”. That’s more than you, or the pan-Arab nationalists who came before you, ever did. All you ever did was encourage more war, time and time again.

    So how about *you* treat the Palestinians as human beings, people who have their own faults, have made their own mistakes (many mistakes, in fact), and that have to live with the consequences of those mistakes - unlike treating them as some kind of mindless blob with a Victim tag.

    But no, you much rather blame Israel for being an Evil Occupying Aggressor, utterly ignoring history beyond the political bias of your precious leaders and their Great Enemies.

    Good luck with that mindset. It’ll get you far.

22. Mani | July 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 am

    Roman kalik,

    How about explosions that made by Zionist themselves in Jwish areas in the neighbouring countries interms to encourage them to migrate to Israel and also blame the Arabs for killing them.

    And I am going to do a comprehensive reading of this figure (Haj Amin il Husyani, the Mufti of Jerusalem) which I,ve heard several times from many Zionists becasue I can’t quite understand when according to many Zionists themselves Palestine where a land of shefferds and indeginous Syrians , the don’t even bother to accept that there were any Palestinians living there, such shefferds could make realtions with Germans as some of similar Zionists supporter like you have told me.

    And by the way how many people were killed in these massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929 and who was exactly responsible for them because I am going to do a fair research on all these claims in a proper time.

    Nevertheles, whatever happended after the 1948 war, and it is interesting that according to your story, Palestinians should go and kiss Israelis ass for not cleansing them totally or nuking them. Thanks god for that and while these are Palestinins who ellected Hamas not me or my government, you are still projecting them as victims of their pan-Arab neighbours or stupid supporters.

23. Mani | July 23rd, 2008 at 2:14 am

    *And yet when *Israel* was ended up controlling said territories after the Six Day War (a war it didn’t start, didn’t want, and after which it immediately asked for postwar negotiations - angrily refused because of arrogant pride of the Arab League*

    You mean that is why Israel still have not withdrawn totally from some parts of Lebenon or Syria and keep them under occupation so there can be always some conflict over there. No wonder resistant groups such as Hizbollah (damn I shouldn’t mention this bloody *terrorist* group here) still are popular in Lebenon even among Christians and all over the world. But who cares as long as they do not kiss the ass of Bush and Blair like Aboomazen, they will be remained in the terrorist list OF Americans like Nelson Mandella whos name was removed from US list of terrorist only last month.

24. Roman Kalik | July 23rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    How about explosions that made by Zionist themselves in Jwish areas in the neighbouring countries interms to encourage them to migrate to Israel and also blame the Arabs for killing them.

    That’s what we call “propaganda” and “conspiracy theories”.

    Perhaps you should instead focus on the two decades of violence towards Iraqi Jews - 1930’s and 1940’s, parallel to the rise of pan-Arab nationalism in Iraq. The Baghdad Pogrom in 1941 saw over 200 Jews dead, thousands injured, not to mention property damage and looting that decimated the Jewish community’s property.

    Did the Zionists “fake” that as well, in your conspiracy-laden mind?

    March 1950 saw Iraq opening its gates briefly, in that Iraqi Jews were actually allowed to keep some of their property when leaving the country, rather than having it all confiscated in a country living under military dictatorship, with their next of kin suffering further consequences. There were two bombings in the duration of that law - one in April, a second toward the end of 1950. These events were so easily pinned on the new “Zionist Enemy” - after all, no easier scapegoat existed in the state, which never even accepted the much greater violent events of but a decade before.

    So let’s blame the Jews for bombing the Jews as part of some sinister master-plot, rather than putting two and two together and working out that it wasn’t all that nice living in Iraq from 1930 to 1950, not very nice at all, being violently oppressed and told it was all your fault - obviously it was. After all, it simply couldn’t be the fault of pan-Arab nationalists, no sir. Them’s good people, right, Mani?

    And was it a Zionist conspiracy that confiscated their property in Iraq? And was it a Zionist conspiracy that destroyed the synagogues and houses of learning in Iraq? Oh no, there was no organized campaign against Iraqi Jews, none whatsoever.

    It was all a Zionist plot. After all, the Iraqi dictatorship even tortured a couple, and got one of ‘em to admit it, dropping all charges against an officer in the Iraqi army who had all these explosive charges in his house…

    Us Jews have a name for this kind of event, Mani. We get reminded of the famous Dreyfus Affair. And as for me, I just find it hilarious how a two events, in a single year, are pointed at as a “Zionist Conspiracy”, utterly ignoring decades of violence and oppression in the process - simply because it doesn’t serve the political purpose. Oh yes, it was those two bomb attacks that made Iraqi Jews leave the country, not the calculated state offensive against them or the bloodbath of just a few years before.

    Keep on ignoring reality, Mani. Conspiracies do ease the mind so.

    And by the way how many people were killed in these massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929 and who was exactly responsible for them because I am going to do a fair research on all these claims in a proper time.

    Jaffa - 47 dead, about 150 injured. Hebron and Jerusalem events, main riot was in Hebron (with a smaller flare Safed), and estimates were around 80 dead, 140 injured in Hebron and Safed. Hebron was largely cleansed of its Jewish population in 1929, with only a few of the original Jewish population deciding to return in the aftermath of that bloody event. The flashpoint of the riots was in Jerusalem, where *only* 17 people were murdered, with dozens injured, in an event that was only contained by the large British police presence in the city.

    Hebron and Safed didn’t have that presence. Minor riots in other cities raised the death toll as well, to over a hundred in total.

    But don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll find a way to blame the Evil Jewish Zionists for everything.

    Palestinians should go and kiss Israelis ass for not cleansing them totally or nuking them.

    Thank you, for twisting my words to fit your dim world view.

    Thanks god for that and while these are Palestinins who ellected Hamas not me or my government, you are still projecting them as victims of their pan-Arab neighbours or stupid supporters.

    And thank you for utterly ignoring the rise of pan-Arab nationalism from 1920 to 1950, and the effect that had on Palestinian Arabs from then onwards to the late 1990’s. Thank you for ignoring historic context and instead focusing solely on the present.

    It’s like I’m talking with myself here…

    You mean that is why Israel still have not withdrawn totally from some parts of Lebenon or Syria and keep them under occupation so there can be always some conflict over there.

    Oh boy, the “just withdraw and the conflict will end” argument! So tell me, Mani, if it’s just about territory and the withdrawal of the Evil Zionist Occupiers, what brought the wars that came before Israel’s control of this land? What makes Syria and Lebanon different from Egypt? Sadat was quite capable of coming to Israel and shaking Begin’s hand, openly and publicly, entering actual negotiations rather than just making angry rants and demands.

    Well looksie here, looks like Egypt has the Sinai back, just like any state entering postwar negotiations from the dawn of time managed to reach an agreement.

    Sadat shook the hand that’s been waiting for him, and other Arab leaders, for decades. All he had to do was come and grasp it. But then again, your precious Ayatollahs glorified in his murder - so you probably view him as an evil traitor and Zionist lackey.

    When you attack a neighboring country from a certain area, expect that area to be taken under military control during the war to prevent advancement to said neighboring country. And expect said victorious country to not just “call it quits” and hand back the control of said strategic territory just used as a source for an attack, without getting so much as a nonagression agreement in return.

    Oh yes, Syria should have really just gotten the Golan back after shelling Lake Kinneret and the nearby towns for a few decades, actively trying to disrupt Israel’s water supply or just sniping at anyone walking along. Oh yes, let’s make it easier on the Syrian military and give it its high ground again, from which it can attack pretty much all of North Israel - and expect nothing, *nothing at all*, except for a “good, now die” in answer.

    Countries that seek peace enter negotiations to restore land captured in war, Mani. Countries that seek war use said land as a pretext to launch endless wars and support more and more enemies in an endless cycle. Do note the difference.

    Oh, and as for Hezb and Sheba’a… Hate to break it to you, but that was just a bone Bashar Assad threw Hezb so that they’d fight Israel as his proxy. Sheba’a was under Syrian military control before 1967, with Lebanon not actually being treated as anything other than an errant child of Greater Syria that should really rejoin Mother. And somehow, neither Lebanon nor Syria have given the UN any actual maps that show Sheba’a as anything other than Syrian territory - gee, I wonder why? Maybe because Assad found it convenient to statements he could take back if pressed?

    The formula is quite simple - you want the return of disputed territory lost in war? How about negotiating for it and promising not to attack again.

    Sounds like a simple formula, but that would involve actually admitting that maybe there was something wrong in the belligerent policy towards Israel for decades - and that’s a bit too much for the prideful people of our Middle-East.

    Tell me, Mani, is your entire logic built around the premise that “it’s all Israel’s fault”, or “it’s all the Zionists’” fault, or “It’s all a Zionist conspiracy”? Is it all just about feeling self-righteous?

25. Mani | July 23rd, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    Roman Kalik,

    No , I don’t belive that in any conflict (or lets say in most) just one side is responsible but there are degrees. But when you call those claims of mine (which are not mine I just have read them like many facts that you might have read from books) conspiracy theories, how I can’t call your claims about Haj Amin il Husyani or that iraq massacare semi-truth or falsified facts.

    Many beleives that to solve a conflict , especially deeply rooted ones like your 60 years conflict with Arabs, you have to look at the both sides grieves. But the ironic part of this beleif is that , at this moment of time, 2008 what are the grieves of your side and what are those of Palestinians. Aren’t you responsible for the misery that they are living in now. If that is the case, tell me Roman (if this is your first name) why is it that Israel still could not attract the trust and sympathy of the universe despite having all the money, media, books, newspapers etc that you have. Why Israel based on a recent survey by B.B.C is identified as the most hated country in the world?

    Instead of self-justification, you have to distance yourself from the shell surrounded your. (isn’t this advice familiar to you, I think you suggested this to me once).

26. Robby | July 24th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    Mani, Roman - Sorry to interrupt but…

    In your last post Mani you state “Aren’t you responsible for the misery that they are living in now.” Isn’t the Palestinian leadership’s PRIMARY responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of the people? Isn’t it their job in life?

    In 2005, when HAMAS took over Gaza they were given three conditions to meet for normalization – recognize Israel, honor past Israeli-Palestinian agreements and denounce violence. HAMAS made it loud and clear they would not meet any of those conditions, with full understanding of the consequences. We can debate about HAMAS’ decision, but it’s hard to disagree that the Palestinians health and welfare is not HAMAS’ primary concern, their own ideals are.

    We can debate whether Arafat made the right choice turning down statehood in 2000, but he chose intifada.

    For 60 years the Palestinian have been unable to get along their Arab brothers, forced to live in camps, being jailed, attacked, killed and exiled. Some estimate more Palestinians were killed by the Jordanian military during Black September then in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even today a Palestinian baby born in Arab countries is denied rights. Do you know the Lebanese military stands guard at some refugee camps to make sure no construction materials are brought in?

    You can’t blame the Palestinian leadership for everything, but after 60 years don’t you think they own the lions share of the blame?

    BTW: I don’t believe the conspiracy about Jews blowing up Jews anymore then I believe that guy from Nigeria who says he giving me 5 million dollars.

27. Mani | July 25th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    Robby,

    I am not in Hammas militia shoes but do you think if they have accepetd those conditions, Israeilis and Americans woud co-operate with them and would meet their request including withdrawal from occupided lands, ending the blockage of money and recognizing them. I don’t beleive so because even now despite American’s critisim of Israel over building new settlements they continue to do so. They continue to violate the human rights , just watch these recent recorded clip

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr61_N9rFQQ&eurl=http://persian.kamangir.net/

    Also give me the right to consider this claim “Some estimate more Palestinians were killed by the Jordanian military during Black September then in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict” as another types of those Nigerian stories.

28. Roman Kalik | July 27th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    You’re not even familiar with the numbers involved, are you Mani? The Palestinian death toll since the start of your Evil Occupation, all the way back in 1967, is several thousand people. Approximately 6,000 dead, to be specific.

    Even you start adding up Palestinian Arab dead all the way back to 1948, you still don’t get more than 10,000 dead.

    You know how many dead Yasser Arafat claimed during *eleven days* of fighting during that fated September, 1970? 20,000 people.

    It was much less, of course. Arafat was obviously overstating the actual reality for political reasons - it was something that he was becoming an expert at during that time.

    No, it was much close to 5,000 Palestinian dead. In all of eleven days, Mani. The late King Hussein wasn’t at all amused by Arafat’s attempt at armed revolt, so he crushed it. Utterly. With anyone anywhere near it.

    Think about that, Mani. Or… just pretend it’s all a Zionist conspiracy.

    Nice video, by the way, though if you think you’re showing anything new here… We all saw the video on the news, in papers… we have this “free press” thing in Israel - you might want to try it out in the Islamic Republic. The soldier in question and his CO were already being questioned by military police before the video was even published. We don’t appreciate people who blindly follow orders here, or officers who think they’re gangsters.

29. Robby | July 27th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Mani –

    Are you saying HAMAS would not agree to the conditions because of settlements in the West Bank? I have not heard Haniyeh or Meshaal say they would meet the three conditions if recognize Israel were to withdrew to 1967. Some sources claimed Mashaal said it to Jimmy Carter, but that was either reported incorrectly, or they had a change of heart.

    My point is that HAMAS had a decision to make, and it was to follow their ideals (right or wrong) at the expense of over a million people’s health and welfare. I’m pretty sure they understood there would be siege if they did not meet those three conditions.

    I didn’t claim the number of Palestinians killed during Black September as fact, there has been debate over the number, but I think it was well over 5,000. And as Roman points out, that wasn’t a 60 year period; it was a couple of weeks. Al Jazeera claims “Thousands of Palestinian civilians were slaughtered” - http://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2004/11/2008410101519774430.html. Do you’re own research if you like.

    IMO – I’ve seen the Youtube video already, it shows someone abusing power, which I think is wrong. Did you think I would try to defend the guy?

30. The image can lie | Antony Loewenstein | October 30th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

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