Are you saying HAMAS would not agree to the conditions because of settlements in the West Bank? I have not heard Haniyeh or Meshaal say they would meet the three conditions if recognize Israel were to withdrew to 1967. Some sources claimed Mashaal said it to Jimmy Carter, but that was either reported incorrectly, or they had a change of heart.

My point is that HAMAS had a decision to make, and it was to follow their ideals (right or wrong) at the expense of over a million people’s health and welfare. I’m pretty sure they understood there would be siege if they did not meet those three conditions.

I didn’t claim the number of Palestinians killed during Black September as fact, there has been debate over the number, but I think it was well over 5,000. And as Roman points out, that wasn’t a 60 year period; it was a couple of weeks. Al Jazeera claims “Thousands of Palestinian civilians were slaughtered” – http://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2004/11/2008410101519774430.html. Do you’re own research if you like.

IMO – I’ve seen the Youtube video already, it shows someone abusing power, which I think is wrong. Did you think I would try to defend the guy?

Even you start adding up Palestinian Arab dead all the way back to 1948, you still don’t get more than 10,000 dead.

You know how many dead Yasser Arafat claimed during *eleven days* of fighting during that fated September, 1970? 20,000 people.

It was much less, of course. Arafat was obviously overstating the actual reality for political reasons – it was something that he was becoming an expert at during that time.

No, it was much close to 5,000 Palestinian dead. In all of eleven days, Mani. The late King Hussein wasn’t at all amused by Arafat’s attempt at armed revolt, so he crushed it. Utterly. With anyone anywhere near it.

Think about that, Mani. Or… just pretend it’s all a Zionist conspiracy.

Nice video, by the way, though if you think you’re showing anything new here… We all saw the video on the news, in papers… we have this “free press” thing in Israel – you might want to try it out in the Islamic Republic. The soldier in question and his CO were already being questioned by military police before the video was even published. We don’t appreciate people who blindly follow orders here, or officers who think they’re gangsters.

I am not in Hammas militia shoes but do you think if they have accepetd those conditions, Israeilis and Americans woud co-operate with them and would meet their request including withdrawal from occupided lands, ending the blockage of money and recognizing them. I don’t beleive so because even now despite American’s critisim of Israel over building new settlements they continue to do so. They continue to violate the human rights , just watch these recent recorded clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr61_N9rFQQ&eurl=http://persian.kamangir.net/

Also give me the right to consider this claim “Some estimate more Palestinians were killed by the Jordanian military during Black September then in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict” as another types of those Nigerian stories.

In your last post Mani you state “Aren’t you responsible for the misery that they are living in now.” Isn’t the Palestinian leadership’s PRIMARY responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of the people? Isn’t it their job in life?

In 2005, when HAMAS took over Gaza they were given three conditions to meet for normalization – recognize Israel, honor past Israeli-Palestinian agreements and denounce violence. HAMAS made it loud and clear they would not meet any of those conditions, with full understanding of the consequences. We can debate about HAMAS’ decision, but it’s hard to disagree that the Palestinians health and welfare is not HAMAS’ primary concern, their own ideals are.

We can debate whether Arafat made the right choice turning down statehood in 2000, but he chose intifada.

For 60 years the Palestinian have been unable to get along their Arab brothers, forced to live in camps, being jailed, attacked, killed and exiled. Some estimate more Palestinians were killed by the Jordanian military during Black September then in the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even today a Palestinian baby born in Arab countries is denied rights. Do you know the Lebanese military stands guard at some refugee camps to make sure no construction materials are brought in?

You can’t blame the Palestinian leadership for everything, but after 60 years don’t you think they own the lions share of the blame?

BTW: I don’t believe the conspiracy about Jews blowing up Jews anymore then I believe that guy from Nigeria who says he giving me 5 million dollars.

No , I don’t belive that in any conflict (or lets say in most) just one side is responsible but there are degrees. But when you call those claims of mine (which are not mine I just have read them like many facts that you might have read from books) conspiracy theories, how I can’t call your claims about Haj Amin il Husyani or that iraq massacare semi-truth or falsified facts.

Many beleives that to solve a conflict , especially deeply rooted ones like your 60 years conflict with Arabs, you have to look at the both sides grieves. But the ironic part of this beleif is that , at this moment of time, 2008 what are the grieves of your side and what are those of Palestinians. Aren’t you responsible for the misery that they are living in now. If that is the case, tell me Roman (if this is your first name) why is it that Israel still could not attract the trust and sympathy of the universe despite having all the money, media, books, newspapers etc that you have. Why Israel based on a recent survey by B.B.C is identified as the most hated country in the world?

Instead of self-justification, you have to distance yourself from the shell surrounded your. (isn’t this advice familiar to you, I think you suggested this to me once).

That’s what we call “propaganda” and “conspiracy theories”.

Perhaps you should instead focus on the two decades of violence towards Iraqi Jews – 1930’s and 1940’s, parallel to the rise of pan-Arab nationalism in Iraq. The Baghdad Pogrom in 1941 saw over 200 Jews dead, thousands injured, not to mention property damage and looting that decimated the Jewish community’s property.

Did the Zionists “fake” that as well, in your conspiracy-laden mind?

March 1950 saw Iraq opening its gates briefly, in that Iraqi Jews were actually allowed to keep some of their property when leaving the country, rather than having it all confiscated in a country living under military dictatorship, with their next of kin suffering further consequences. There were two bombings in the duration of that law – one in April, a second toward the end of 1950. These events were so easily pinned on the new “Zionist Enemy” – after all, no easier scapegoat existed in the state, which never even accepted the much greater violent events of but a decade before.

So let’s blame the Jews for bombing the Jews as part of some sinister master-plot, rather than putting two and two together and working out that it wasn’t all that nice living in Iraq from 1930 to 1950, not very nice at all, being violently oppressed and told it was all your fault – obviously it was. After all, it simply couldn’t be the fault of pan-Arab nationalists, no sir. Them’s good people, right, Mani?

And was it a Zionist conspiracy that confiscated their property in Iraq? And was it a Zionist conspiracy that destroyed the synagogues and houses of learning in Iraq? Oh no, there was no organized campaign against Iraqi Jews, none whatsoever.

It was all a Zionist plot. After all, the Iraqi dictatorship even tortured a couple, and got one of ‘em to admit it, dropping all charges against an officer in the Iraqi army who had all these explosive charges in his house…

Us Jews have a name for this kind of event, Mani. We get reminded of the famous Dreyfus Affair. And as for me, I just find it hilarious how a two events, in a single year, are pointed at as a “Zionist Conspiracy”, utterly ignoring decades of violence and oppression in the process – simply because it doesn’t serve the political purpose. Oh yes, it was those two bomb attacks that made Iraqi Jews leave the country, not the calculated state offensive against them or the bloodbath of just a few years before.

Keep on ignoring reality, Mani. Conspiracies do ease the mind so.

And by the way how many people were killed in these massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929 and who was exactly responsible for them because I am going to do a fair research on all these claims in a proper time.

Jaffa – 47 dead, about 150 injured. Hebron and Jerusalem events, main riot was in Hebron (with a smaller flare Safed), and estimates were around 80 dead, 140 injured in Hebron and Safed. Hebron was largely cleansed of its Jewish population in 1929, with only a few of the original Jewish population deciding to return in the aftermath of that bloody event. The flashpoint of the riots was in Jerusalem, where *only* 17 people were murdered, with dozens injured, in an event that was only contained by the large British police presence in the city.

Hebron and Safed didn’t have that presence. Minor riots in other cities raised the death toll as well, to over a hundred in total.

But don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll find a way to blame the Evil Jewish Zionists for everything.

Palestinians should go and kiss Israelis ass for not cleansing them totally or nuking them.

Thank you, for twisting my words to fit your dim world view.

Thanks god for that and while these are Palestinins who ellected Hamas not me or my government, you are still projecting them as victims of their pan-Arab neighbours or stupid supporters.

And thank you for utterly ignoring the rise of pan-Arab nationalism from 1920 to 1950, and the effect that had on Palestinian Arabs from then onwards to the late 1990’s. Thank you for ignoring historic context and instead focusing solely on the present.

It’s like I’m talking with myself here…

You mean that is why Israel still have not withdrawn totally from some parts of Lebenon or Syria and keep them under occupation so there can be always some conflict over there.

Oh boy, the “just withdraw and the conflict will end” argument! So tell me, Mani, if it’s just about territory and the withdrawal of the Evil Zionist Occupiers, what brought the wars that came before Israel’s control of this land? What makes Syria and Lebanon different from Egypt? Sadat was quite capable of coming to Israel and shaking Begin’s hand, openly and publicly, entering actual negotiations rather than just making angry rants and demands.

Well looksie here, looks like Egypt has the Sinai back, just like any state entering postwar negotiations from the dawn of time managed to reach an agreement.

Sadat shook the hand that’s been waiting for him, and other Arab leaders, for decades. All he had to do was come and grasp it. But then again, your precious Ayatollahs glorified in his murder – so you probably view him as an evil traitor and Zionist lackey.

When you attack a neighboring country from a certain area, expect that area to be taken under military control during the war to prevent advancement to said neighboring country. And expect said victorious country to not just “call it quits” and hand back the control of said strategic territory just used as a source for an attack, without getting so much as a nonagression agreement in return.

Oh yes, Syria should have really just gotten the Golan back after shelling Lake Kinneret and the nearby towns for a few decades, actively trying to disrupt Israel’s water supply or just sniping at anyone walking along. Oh yes, let’s make it easier on the Syrian military and give it its high ground again, from which it can attack pretty much all of North Israel – and expect nothing, *nothing at all*, except for a “good, now die” in answer.

Countries that seek peace enter negotiations to restore land captured in war, Mani. Countries that seek war use said land as a pretext to launch endless wars and support more and more enemies in an endless cycle. Do note the difference.

Oh, and as for Hezb and Sheba’a… Hate to break it to you, but that was just a bone Bashar Assad threw Hezb so that they’d fight Israel as his proxy. Sheba’a was under Syrian military control before 1967, with Lebanon not actually being treated as anything other than an errant child of Greater Syria that should really rejoin Mother. And somehow, neither Lebanon nor Syria have given the UN any actual maps that show Sheba’a as anything other than Syrian territory – gee, I wonder why? Maybe because Assad found it convenient to statements he could take back if pressed?

The formula is quite simple – you want the return of disputed territory lost in war? How about negotiating for it and promising not to attack again.

Sounds like a simple formula, but that would involve actually admitting that maybe there was something wrong in the belligerent policy towards Israel for decades – and that’s a bit too much for the prideful people of our Middle-East.

Tell me, Mani, is your entire logic built around the premise that “it’s all Israel’s fault”, or “it’s all the Zionists’” fault, or “It’s all a Zionist conspiracy”? Is it all just about feeling self-righteous?

You mean that is why Israel still have not withdrawn totally from some parts of Lebenon or Syria and keep them under occupation so there can be always some conflict over there. No wonder resistant groups such as Hizbollah (damn I shouldn’t mention this bloody *terrorist* group here) still are popular in Lebenon even among Christians and all over the world. But who cares as long as they do not kiss the ass of Bush and Blair like Aboomazen, they will be remained in the terrorist list OF Americans like Nelson Mandella whos name was removed from US list of terrorist only last month.

How about explosions that made by Zionist themselves in Jwish areas in the neighbouring countries interms to encourage them to migrate to Israel and also blame the Arabs for killing them.

And I am going to do a comprehensive reading of this figure (Haj Amin il Husyani, the Mufti of Jerusalem) which I,ve heard several times from many Zionists becasue I can’t quite understand when according to many Zionists themselves Palestine where a land of shefferds and indeginous Syrians , the don’t even bother to accept that there were any Palestinians living there, such shefferds could make realtions with Germans as some of similar Zionists supporter like you have told me.

And by the way how many people were killed in these massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929 and who was exactly responsible for them because I am going to do a fair research on all these claims in a proper time.

Nevertheles, whatever happended after the 1948 war, and it is interesting that according to your story, Palestinians should go and kiss Israelis ass for not cleansing them totally or nuking them. Thanks god for that and while these are Palestinins who ellected Hamas not me or my government, you are still projecting them as victims of their pan-Arab neighbours or stupid supporters.

You think I didn’t check the youtube? And you think I didn’t hear all that uninformed and utterly politically biased stuff in the past?

And you know the amusing part? Of your stated news outlets (which are all, at least to you, part of some kind of Mass Propaganda Conspiracy – Or as Galloway put it, “Owned by Zionists”), I read about an article every four days out of the first and second, and have never watched Fox News in my entire life.

This is because I neither live in the US, nor in the UK. I live in Israel, and I access reputable foreign news outlets(yes, CNN and BCC, though each has its flaws, are *reputable* news outlets – unlike anything owned and run by the Islamic Republic, where the news must tow the Party line) for the occasional international news.

The critical point here is that Palestinians are also *people*. Why not start from their history and what happened to them and is happening at the moment? They are not sub-human or dogs as Cherchil used to say when he was granting that land to your Zionist inventors.

When did Zionists, or Churchill for that matter, say that Palestinians aren’t human? And I know the history – far better than you, apparently. I know the history of the early Twenties and Thirties (Haj Amin il Husyani, the Mufti of Jerusalem, calling the Western Wall an inseperatable part of an Islamic worship site, and thus No Jews Allowed, massacres in Jaffa in 1921, massacres in Hebron and Jerusalem in 1929).

Or perhaps you’d like to hear the history of the 1948 war, when just about every single Arab nation in the region declared that should Israel declare independence, a total war would be declared to… “erase” the Zionist Interlopers. Guess what? That declaration resulted in a massive number of war refugees, all Palestinian Arabs, to leave to the lands of said Arab invaders – where they were welcomed and given shelter for the duration of the war.

The Jews of Palestine had nowhere to go, nowhere to run, so they made their stand. And somehow, the State of Israel *was* born, with its remaining Muslim Arabs, and Christian Arabs, and Bedoins, and Circassians, and Druze… But those aforementioned? Those who remained in the territory of enemy states, effectively waiting for their Jewish neighbors to be “cleansed” and then to return after the war? They weren’t let back in after the 1948 war officially ended. Maybe, just *maybe*, it had something to do with the fact that the Jews of the newly-founded Israel saw them as traitors who wanted them dead, and preferred survival to suicide.

And it’s amusing how you conveniently ignore how both Jordan and Egypt at the time annexed and occupied the West Bank and Gaza, respectively, without so much as a complaint from the likes of you… ever.

And yet when *Israel* was ended up controlling said territories after the Six Day War (a war it didn’t start, didn’t want, and after which it immediately asked for postwar negotiations – angrily refused because of arrogant pride of the Arab League), it is now the Great Evil Occupier. Great Evil Occupier my ass – Israel tried to negotiate for these very territories a minute after the war ended, and all it got was “drop dead” in response. Or perhaps you’d like to discuss the Palestinian leadership, which had only emerged in some kind of coherent political-military framework in that decade, in the form of the PLO?

You know, the same PLO that actively tried to “liberate all of Palestine” (to whit, destroying my country in the process), had pretty much targeted civilians as its main course of action since its very inception, and that attempted armed revolts in neighboring Arab states (tried and failed in Jordan – now known as The Black September Incident, tried and succeeded in Lebanon, ignited the second Lebanese Civil War as that state lost all semblance of sovereignty, and resulted in a back-and-forth conflict between PLO-controlled Lebanon and Israel).

And you know what? Unlike the great Arab Supporters of the Resistance, who kept the Palestinians in camps and pointed them at Israel as the cause for their poverty and suffering (thus getting an expendable human weapon to serve their political ends), Israel is actually trying to reach an *agreement* with Palestinian leaders who actually bothered to accept Israel as a neighbor, rather than merely a place to “liberate”. That’s more than you, or the pan-Arab nationalists who came before you, ever did. All you ever did was encourage more war, time and time again.

So how about *you* treat the Palestinians as human beings, people who have their own faults, have made their own mistakes (many mistakes, in fact), and that have to live with the consequences of those mistakes – unlike treating them as some kind of mindless blob with a Victim tag.

But no, you much rather blame Israel for being an Evil Occupying Aggressor, utterly ignoring history beyond the political bias of your precious leaders and their Great Enemies.

Good luck with that mindset. It’ll get you far.